Re: The border after 1921
Marion,
Glad to have helped. I probably should have explained where my information comes from. In the 1980s I worked alongside some UK Customs Officers in Belfast who had, in their careers, worked along the border. They obviously hadn’t been there in the 1920s & 1930s but some had been there in the 1950s and they had a lot of inherited stories and knowledge about how things operated over the years. (And things hadn’t changed all that much by the 1980s). In addition, in The Custom House in Belfast, they had some historical instructions from 1921 on display in the entrance lobby. These old instructions explained to staff across Ireland what was to happen at and after partition.
In 1921, there were obviously Customs Officers stationed all over Ireland at the various seaports, Dublin, Cork, Belfast, Londonderry etc. And most counties also had a local office that dealt with other customs & excise matters (eg excise duties at distilleries) and so on. Local Customs offices even helped the public obtain the 1841 & 1851 census extracts for their pension applications, if they wished. (The local Customs Officer would help applicants fill out the form, and send it off to Dublin. You may occasionally see a Customs stamp on some of those forms on the nli site. That's why). All these staff were broadly told that if you work in what is to become the Irish Free State (since 1.1.1949, the Republic of Ireland) then on a certain date around 1.1.1922 you will transfer en-bloc to the new Irish Customs Service. Those of you in the 6 counties of the new Northern Ireland will remain in the UK Customs & Excise Department.
The fledgling Irish Customs Service was short staffed in some locations and in the early years, UK Customs Officers were seconded to work with their Irish colleagues for a period of time, to help out, before returning to the UK. One of the notices on display in the Belfast Custom House detailed the terms and conditions for those cross border attachments. So in the early years of the Border many of the Customs Officers on the “Irish” side were former colleagues of their British counterparts. And the seconded ones would even still have been British Customs Officers, issued temporarily with Irish Customs warrants. Strange old world.
Elwyn
On Wednesday, 29 June 2022, 12:20:29 BST, marionshephard <marionshephard@btinternet.com> wrote:
Many thanks Elwyn. As always you provide a wealth of information which gives me a much clearer picture. I was particularly interested in the 1920s and 30s as all my relatives who would remember them have long gone. I have been reading something called ' the Irish borderlands Project' carried out by St Mary's University, London. It was interesting but from what I did hear from my family it didn't always fit with what I knew. So thankyou for explaining things so clearly for me.Regards Marion
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------From: Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com Date: 28/06/2022 18:22 (GMT+00:00) To: marionshephard via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com Cc: Elwyn Soutter elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: The border after 1921
Marion,
I cannot speak for the Clady Bridge crossing but my family lived in Fermanagh and routinely crossed the border into Monaghan and elsewhere all through the 1920s & 1930s and beyond. People went back and forth after 1921, just as they did before. You would have had no difficulty attending church on the other side of the border, and I am not sure there was ever a regular Customs presence on Sundays anyway.
There were Customs posts on the major “approved” crossing roads but these were generally only staffed from 8.00am to 6.00pm. There were Customs Officers on both sides of the border, so there was an Irish Customs control as well as a British one. Folk were always a little anxious that they’d have something seized, or would have to pay duty. (During WW2 my mother in law used to smuggle the odd half pound of butter from Monaghan to Fermanagh, usually concealed in her underwear. She would travel by bus and was always anxious about being challenged, but never was).
As far as I am aware, provided you used an approved crossing point, there were no restrictions on vehicles or any other form of wheeled transport, unless you were importing a vehicle permanently or were carrying commercial goods. The usual excise duties would apply then. Passports weren’t required. There was no passport control, only Customs.
Most of the time, after 6.00pm there was no-one on the border at all, and I don’t think there was much coverage on Sundays. Plus there were several hundred minor “unapproved” roads. There were no permanent controls on them. They were supposedly only to be used by vehicles requiring local access to land, eg farmers, and by persons on foot. In practice they were fairly widely used to cross the border by car. There were mobile Customs patrols that occasionally checked them but from what I heard they were few and far between. You could theoretically have your car seized if you used an unapproved crossing but you normally got it back if you paid a small penalty.
Commercial carriers did pay some duty when bringing goods across the border (and they could often reclaim tax, if exporting) but otherwise there wasn’t really a vigorous control. Most people continued to cross fairly easily as they did before partition. Just you needed to allow a little time in case you were stopped.
My feeling is that a horse drawn carriage in the 1920s would be unlikely to have faced any restrictions in crossing. (I have never heard of any). As international border crossings go it was always very “light touch.” There were no fences or any other markers along the border, save at the approved crossing points.
The last Customs controls on the border were abolished on 1.1.1993.
Elwyn
On Tuesday, 28 June 2022, 17:33:09 BST, marionshephard via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
Hello allI am wondering if there is anyone who has some local knowledge about the border between Tyrone and Donegal at Clady. My family were split in two by the border in 1921, although the Donegal members seemed to have managed to continue attending their church in Tyrone ( Urney Presbyterian) and my father born in Tyrone seems to have known his mother's family home in Donegal. Their route across the border was via Clady Bridge over the river Finn. I have been reading about the establishment of customs posts and how it affected people living along the border. Does anyone know if clady Bridge was an approved crossing or not, and how easy was it to move between the two counties there? I know movement on foot was allowed and restrictions were introduced on motor vehicles but what about horse drawn carriages?I would be grateful for any information or thoughts that anyone has.Regards Marion Shephard
Sent from my Galaxy
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Hear Hear!
I second the thanks for the generosity and sharing of knowledge of Elwyn
and folks like Boyd.
Understanding history allows people to be better members of our society and
have more appreciation for what went
before us and how people managed the circumstances in which they lived. I
too am grateful for the information shared.
Valerie
in California
On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 5:05 AM Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
Marion,
Glad to have helped. I probably should have explained where my information
comes from. In the 1980s I worked alongside some UK Customs Officers in
Belfast who had, in their careers, worked along the border. They obviously
hadn’t been there in the 1920s & 1930s but some had been there in the 1950s
and they had a lot of inherited stories and knowledge about how things
operated over the years. (And things hadn’t changed all that much by the
1980s). In addition, in The Custom House in Belfast, they had some
historical instructions from 1921 on display in the entrance lobby. These
old instructions explained to staff across Ireland what was to happen at
and after partition.
In 1921, there were obviously Customs Officers stationed all over Ireland
at the various seaports, Dublin, Cork, Belfast, Londonderry etc. And most
counties also had a local office that dealt with other customs & excise
matters (eg excise duties at distilleries) and so on. Local Customs
offices even helped the public obtain the 1841 & 1851 census extracts for
their pension applications, if they wished. (The local Customs Officer
would help applicants fill out the form, and send it off to Dublin. You may
occasionally see a Customs stamp on some of those forms on the nli site.
That's why). All these staff were broadly told that if you work in what is
to become the Irish Free State (since 1.1.1949, the Republic of Ireland)
then on a certain date around 1.1.1922 you will transfer en-bloc to the new
Irish Customs Service. Those of you in the 6 counties of the new Northern
Ireland will remain in the UK Customs & Excise Department.
The fledgling Irish Customs Service was short staffed in some locations
and in the early years, UK Customs Officers were seconded to work with
their Irish colleagues for a period of time, to help out, before returning
to the UK. One of the notices on display in the Belfast Custom House
detailed the terms and conditions for those cross border attachments. So
in the early years of the Border many of the Customs Officers on the
“Irish” side were former colleagues of their British counterparts. And the
seconded ones would even still have been British Customs Officers, issued
temporarily with Irish Customs warrants. Strange old world.
Elwyn
On Wednesday, 29 June 2022, 12:20:29 BST, marionshephard <
marionshephard@btinternet.com> wrote:
Many thanks Elwyn. As always you provide a wealth of information which
gives me a much clearer picture. I was particularly interested in the
1920s and 30s as all my relatives who would remember them have long gone. I
have been reading something called ' the Irish borderlands Project' carried
out by St Mary's University, London. It was interesting but from what I
did hear from my family it didn't always fit with what I knew. So thankyou
for explaining things so clearly for me.
Regards Marion
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------
From: Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com>
Date: 28/06/2022 18:22 (GMT+00:00)
To: marionshephard via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Elwyn Soutter elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: The border after 1921
Marion,
I cannot speak for the Clady Bridge crossing but my family lived in
Fermanagh and routinely crossed the border into Monaghan and elsewhere all
through the 1920s & 1930s and beyond. People went back and forth after
1921, just as they did before. You would have had no difficulty attending
church on the other side of the border, and I am not sure there was ever a
regular Customs presence on Sundays anyway.
There were Customs posts on the major “approved” crossing roads but these
were generally only staffed from 8.00am to 6.00pm. There were Customs
Officers on both sides of the border, so there was an Irish Customs control
as well as a British one. Folk were always a little anxious that they’d
have something seized, or would have to pay duty. (During WW2 my mother in
law used to smuggle the odd half pound of butter from Monaghan to
Fermanagh, usually concealed in her underwear. She would travel by bus and
was always anxious about being challenged, but never was).
As far as I am aware, provided you used an approved crossing point, there
were no restrictions on vehicles or any other form of wheeled transport,
unless you were importing a vehicle permanently or were carrying commercial
goods. The usual excise duties would apply then. Passports weren’t
required. There was no passport control, only Customs.
Most of the time, after 6.00pm there was no-one on the border at all, and
I don’t think there was much coverage on Sundays. Plus there were several
hundred minor “unapproved” roads. There were no permanent controls on them.
They were supposedly only to be used by vehicles requiring local access to
land, eg farmers, and by persons on foot. In practice they were fairly
widely used to cross the border by car. There were mobile Customs patrols
that occasionally checked them but from what I heard they were few and far
between. You could theoretically have your car seized if you used an
unapproved crossing but you normally got it back if you paid a small
penalty.
Commercial carriers did pay some duty when bringing goods across the
border (and they could often reclaim tax, if exporting) but otherwise there
wasn’t really a vigorous control. Most people continued to cross fairly
easily as they did before partition. Just you needed to allow a little time
in case you were stopped.
My feeling is that a horse drawn carriage in the 1920s would be unlikely
to have faced any restrictions in crossing. (I have never heard of
any). As international border crossings go it was always very “light
touch.” There were no fences or any other markers along the border, save at
the approved crossing points.
The last Customs controls on the border were abolished on 1.1.1993.
Elwyn
On Tuesday, 28 June 2022, 17:33:09 BST, marionshephard via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
Hello all
I am wondering if there is anyone who has some local knowledge about the
border between Tyrone and Donegal at Clady. My family were split in two by
the border in 1921, although the Donegal members seemed to have managed to
continue attending their church in Tyrone ( Urney Presbyterian) and my
father born in Tyrone seems to have known his mother's family home in
Donegal. Their route across the border was via Clady Bridge over the river
Finn. I have been reading about the establishment of customs posts and how
it affected people living along the border. Does anyone know if clady
Bridge was an approved crossing or not, and how easy was it to move between
the two counties there? I know movement on foot was allowed and
restrictions were introduced on motor vehicles but what about horse drawn
carriages?
I would be grateful for any information or thoughts that anyone has.
Regards Marion Shephard
Sent from my Galaxy
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