Re: New Content - Rodgers & Rogers Genealogy Notes, Co. Donegal, Ireland 1830-69
Marion,
I can see from your other message that Len’s information covers most of your questions. You can easily find discussions on the web about the validity of Irish marriages before 1845, that were not in the Church of Ireland (the established or state church).
Some will tell you they were illegal either under civil law or canonical (church) law, or both. That didn’t mean they didn't happen, just that there was a question mark over their validity. As we all know, many sets of records have been lost (or were simply never kept in the first place) but some do survive. Antrim 1st Presbyterian church has baptisms & marriages from 1675 onwards. Lisburn 1st Presbyterian start in 1689, and so on. So Presbyterians were happily marrying and baptizing in their own faith from the time they first arrived in Ireland (ie early 1600s).
The area of greatest doubt was mixed marriages, where various court cases had judged that a mixed marriage was not lawful if conducted by a Presbyterian Minister or a Catholic priest. So pre 1845 mixed marriage couples tended to play safe and marry in the Church of Ireland (regardless of their own denomination at birth). This was also important for wealthy families where there might be inheritance issues if a marriage was deemed invalid. Post 1845, even though civil law now allowed mixed marriages in any denomination, the churches themselves sometime still raised difficulties. That often led to one party converting to another denomination. Or they married in a Register Office (not an option pre 1845).
Presbyterian baptisms would normally have been conducted in church. The idea is that the whole congregation should witness the event, and it normally required a special reason for it to be done elsewhere. As Len has said, from 1845 onwards, marriages normally had to be conducted in church, but prior to that, for Presbyterians, a church wedding was not routine. Post 1845 it was still possible to marry somewhere other than in a church but, for Presbyterians, that required a special licence, issued by the Moderator (the head of the church) personally. You don’t see many of them. But they were issued eg where someone was seriously ill, or there was some other compelling reason. I have a feeling I have seen one for someone married in prison.
Here’s a Presbyterian marriage in 1829 at the bride’s home (Londonderry Sentinel 28.11.1829):
On Tuesday, the 17th inst., by the Rev. Clarke Houston, John Canning, Esq., surgeon,
Garvagh, to Margaret, daughter of Samuel Moore, Esq., Clintough. The marriage was celebrated at the residence of the young lady's father.
In Scotland the law was different and the building where the marriage took place did not have to be licenced. So they carried on marrying at home, and other places, like the famous blacksmiths shop in Gretna Green.
Elwyn
On Tuesday, 18 January 2022, 13:12:44 GMT, marionshephard <marionshephard@btinternet.com> wrote:
Thanks Elwyn, I did wonder about this. When were Presbyterian marriages first allowed in chapels/churches ? Do you know how the legal status of the marriages were established before civil registration began. I have seen records of marriages in Ballindrait Presbyterian Church before this - would these have taken place in the church or elsewhere? Sorry for all the questions !Regards Marion
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------From: Elwyn Soutter elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk Date: 17/01/2022 09:00 (GMT+00:00) To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com Cc: marionshephard marionshephard@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: New Content - Rodgers & Rogers Genealogy Notes, Co. Donegal, Ireland 1830-69
Marion,
It was quite common for Presbyterians to marry in a private house. Usually the bride's home, or the Manse (the Minister's House) and sometimes a local hotel, especially in Scotland (where Presbyterianism started). Church weddings are a comparatively recent thing for Presbyterians. Mid 1800s onwards.
Elwyn
On Sunday, 16 January 2022, 19:28:56 GMT, marionshephard via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
Many thanks Len for this information and all the work you do. I was intrigued to see a Nathaniel Rodgers of Tierkeren marrying in 1845 in Castlefin. One of the branches of my family were Rodgers at Tierkeren, the earliest known name I have is Andrew Rodgers, who is a tenant there at the time of Griffiths but was there before this according to records for Ballindrait Presbyterian Church. Nathaniel is a new name to me, perhaps a brother to Andrew. If anyone knows anything about this family I would be very interested. I am also intrigued by the fact that the marriage took place in someone's house.Thanks again Marion Shephard
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