Thanks for the helpful and interesting examples of people having elusive/unknown birth dates. All good examples and very true! With our 19th century ancestors often unconcerned about their birth dates (the film-famous answer to the question: "When was I born?" is "In the summertime"), we're fortunate to have as many surviving church records in County Tyrone as we do, with thousands of birth/baptism/christening entries. As I wrote about my relative Archibald Hadden who died in 1886: <<I haven't yet been back to PRONI to order and view the admin. papers to see if there was a typo. error in his death date when the Will Calendar indexes were typed up.>>  --  that's exactly what I meant, to check for a typographic error in Archibald Hadden's indexed Will Calendar entry (administration only, no will). Elwyn points out that most pre-1900 wills and administration papers didn't survive the 1922 fire, and that: <<The Probate file may contain a mistake either by the person who completed the paperwork, or even by PRONI staff in transcribing it.>> Checking the original record versus the on-line typed index (like PRONI's, for instance) is just for my own knowledge; it's not a major death date difference in Archibald Hadden's case. But I do it whenever possible. You CAN ask (on site at PRONI, in person) to view the original wills that survived, the original will and admin. books/calendars, and many other original records -- deeds, leases, rent rolls, yeomanry lists, citizens' petitions, marriage contracts, estate papers, etc. But, usually you have to "be there" to check originals! Not always possible, or -- like today -- advisable. Your research might involve collections at PRONI or the National Library of Ireland or other places, but with any repository like these, non-resident researchers all too often have to depend upon on-line indexes and databases. It's a shame that we're mostly limited to "on-line", but with the worldwide virus situation not yet under control or diminishing, and access to records and archives still restricted, that's the way it's probably going to be for quite awhile. The main consideration is to be aware that PRONI's on-line indexes of surviving will calendars and administration calendars aren't infallible. The pages of lists and tables we see on-line were typed by humans, and humans are liable to error. Sometimes you do find that the typists made mistakes. A person's name, a place name, a death date? When it's something I really want to know or a question I really want to resolve -- such as when the will/administration index is contradictory to other records (and the original will/admin. pages aren't viewable on-line) -- I go to the original documents on-site whenever and wherever possible. I don't live in Belfast, I live in Alabama and can only make periodic trips to Ireland, but I have great friends in Ireland who do look-ups for me, as I do for them in U.S. records. Keep the "human error" factor in mind when you view the 1901 and 1911 censuses, too. The typed on-line indexes/abstracts aren't always correct. Always view the original pages and read the data for yourself. Experienced researchers like Len, Elwyn, Jim, Gordon and others are very familiar with "check the originals," but novice researchers might benefit from this reminder. And, Len, thanks so much for the 1872 marriage notice of Rebecca Hadden, daughter of Archibald, to Alex. McCamey in Bendigo/Sandhurst. Yes, those people are in my extended Hadden family, although Rebecca's father was yet another "Archibald Hadden" and not the man who died in 1886. Lots of same-name people in the Hadden family tree! Rebecca's father Archibald Hadden (who died in 1884) married Mary Jane Irwin (who died in 1864). They lived at Goland/Lough Park (just a few miles east of Ballygawley), and then at Cavankilgreen. Several of their many children emigrated to Australia and New Zealand. Among that Archibald's descendants are the late retired businessman, John Hadden of Loughmacrory Lodge (died 2018), and his brother Eric Hadden (died 2008) who established the Aughnacloy Golf Club. A still-living and researching descendant is Barry Graham in Australia, whose ancestor Margaret Hadden was one of Archibald and Mary Jane's daughters. Barry's blog on the "Haddens of Northern Ireland" is here -- http://btgraham.blogspot.com/ If you ever see records on Haddens in County Tyrone, they're probably related to me. Annie -- Email: anniecrenshaw@centurytel.net Address: 1812 Pollard Road Honoraville, Alabama 36042 USA