Reply about Ballygawley Church of Ireland records & civil registration records
RE: the recent message exchanges between Craig Leeman, Len Swindley and
others about Ballygawley Church of Ireland records:
It's true that:
-- "Records of births, marriages and deaths may be found in civil
registration certificates from 1845"
But that's only Protestant marriages from 1845-on. It was 1864 before
vital records of birth and death were added to civil registrations, and
1864 before marriages for persons of any denomination were registered by
the civil authorities.
It's also true that:
-- "the [church] registers are generally kept in the in the vestry or
the rectory. However you can obtain the info you require by extracting
deaths from Irish Genealogy https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ up
to 1922 for Northern Ireland – usually greater detail contained on a
certificate."
In addition to the churches themselves as record hosts, repositories for
Presbyterian records include PRONI in Belfast (mostly microfilmed church
registers), and the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast. Roman
Catholic church records are being gathered and posted on-line at the
National Library of Ireland in Dublin. Many Church of Ireland registers
can be researchedat the RCB (Representative Church Body)Library in Dublin.
Sometimes more details are on a civil certificate than in a church
record, and sometimes not.
Archibald Hadden's 1841 marriage is an excellent example of a VERY
informative church record. In Aughnacloy Presbyterian Church records:
"Archibald Hadden, son of the late James and Jane (nee Brisbern) Hadden
of Scotch Cravenny, parish of Ballygawley, married Margaret Donaldson,
daughter of Alexander and Mary (nee Coote) Donaldson of Loughans, parish
of Carnteel on 16 February 1841. Married by Rev. John Henderson,
Minister of Aughnacloy Presbyterian Church. Witnesses: Charles Coote of
Loughans and James Stevens of Doolargy, parish of Carnteel."
Both sets of parents are named for the bride and groom!
An example of conflicting source data in Archibald Hadden's records are
his death date and age at death:
Archibald Hadden of Doolargy (the man of the 1841 marriage) was age 83
when he died 7th April 1886, according to his GRO death certificate, so
he was born about 1802-1803.
In the Ballygawley Presbyterian Church register of deaths, however, his
death was listed at age 92 on 7-4-1886 (7th April 1886), so he would
have been born about 1793-1794. Presbyterians didn't usually record
deaths and burials, so this is an unusual set of records for that
particular church.
The Wills Calendar Index at PRONI has Archibald's death date as 16 April
1889 -- no viewable image, only the will administration abstract. I
haven't yet been back to PRONI to order and view the admin. papers to
see if there was a typo. error in his death date when the Will Calendar
indexes were typed up. But the available records do show different death
dates and ages at death (yielding estimated birth dates) -- nearly 10
years apart.
County Tyrone is a wonderful county for research, and this web site has
knowledgeable hosts and users who generously share their time posting
data, answering questions,and doing look-ups. This combination of
expertise has undoubtedly helped many, many other researchers. If you
have information from your own research, or find a mention of a person
being from County Tyrone, consider sharing it with webmaster Jim McKane,
so that he in turn can share with it everyone.
Regards,
Annie Crenshaw
Email: anniecrenshaw@centurytel.net
Annie,
I can perhaps save you a trip to PRONI, at least in respect of Archibald Hadden’s probate file. The abstract (summary) indicates he was intestate and also that probate was granted before 1900. All the pre 1900 files were burned in the 1922 fire. Where there was a will, a copy was made which was kept elsewhere (so not burned) and those are now on the PRONI site. But for intestacy cases, like this one, nothing remains except the abstract. Sorry!
I’d be inclined to rely on the death certificate and church burial records for the date of death. The Probate file may contain a mistake either by the person who completed the paperwork, or even by PRONI staff in transcribing it.
As to the ages, well they were just guesses in those days, and so variations such as you have encountered were pretty common. For someone in their 80s or 90s an error of up to 10 years ether way would not be unusual.
Good luck
Elwyn
On Sunday, 29 November 2020, 23:29:31 GMT, Annie Crenshaw via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
RE: the recent message exchanges between Craig Leeman, Len Swindley and others about Ballygawley Church of Ireland records:
It's true that:
-- "Records of births, marriages and deaths may be found in civil registration certificates from 1845"
But that's only Protestant marriages from 1845-on. It was 1864 before vital records of birth and death were added to civil registrations, and 1864 before marriages for persons of any denomination were registered by the civil authorities.
It's also true that:
-- "the [church] registers are generally kept in the in the vestry or the rectory. However you can obtain the info you require by extracting deaths from Irish Genealogy https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ up to 1922 for Northern Ireland – usually greater detail contained on a certificate."
In addition to the churches themselves as record hosts, repositories for Presbyterian records include PRONI in Belfast (mostly microfilmed church registers), and the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast. Roman Catholic church records are being gathered and posted on-line at the National Library of Ireland in Dublin. Many Church of Ireland registers can be researched at the RCB (Representative Church Body) Library in Dublin.
Sometimes more details are on a civil certificate than in a church record, and sometimes not.
Archibald Hadden's 1841 marriage is an excellent example of a VERY informative church record. In Aughnacloy Presbyterian Church records:
"Archibald Hadden, son of the late James and Jane (nee Brisbern) Hadden of Scotch Cravenny, parish of Ballygawley, married Margaret Donaldson, daughter of Alexander and Mary (nee Coote) Donaldson of Loughans, parish of Carnteel on 16 February 1841. Married by Rev. John Henderson, Minister of Aughnacloy Presbyterian Church. Witnesses: Charles Coote of Loughans and James Stevens of Doolargy, parish of Carnteel."
Both sets of parents are named for the bride and groom!
An example of conflicting source data in Archibald Hadden's records are his death date and age at death:
Archibald Hadden of Doolargy (the man of the 1841 marriage) was age 83 when he died 7th April 1886, according to his GRO death certificate, so he was born about 1802-1803.
In the Ballygawley Presbyterian Church register of deaths, however, his death was listed at age 92 on 7-4-1886 (7th April 1886), so he would have been born about 1793-1794. Presbyterians didn't usually record deaths and burials, so this is an unusual set of records for that particular church.
The Wills Calendar Index at PRONI has Archibald's death date as 16 April 1889 -- no viewable image, only the will administration abstract. I haven't yet been back to PRONI to order and view the admin. papers to see if there was a typo. error in his death date when the Will Calendar indexes were typed up. But the available records do show different death dates and ages at death (yielding estimated birth dates) -- nearly 10 years apart.
County Tyrone is a wonderful county for research, and this web site has knowledgeable hosts and users who generously share their time posting data, answering questions,and doing look-ups. This combination of expertise has undoubtedly helped many, many other researchers. If you have information from your own research, or find a mention of a person being from County Tyrone, consider sharing it with webmaster Jim McKane, so that he in turn can share with it everyone.
Regards,
Annie Crenshaw
Email: anniecrenshaw@centurytel.net
Send a Message to the List - cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
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Elwyn, Too true. I have long recognised to ignore the 'age at death'
recorded on death certs. I've got instances when even 10 years in error
may be too short!!! Sadly too, birth records are often lacking. Seems
nobody was interested in the birth of children, even 'blue blood', until
they had survived the childhood years. Childhood mortality was rife. The
marriage dates and dob are often reliable. Gordon
On 30/11/2020 10:30 am, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList wrote:
Annie,
I can perhaps save you a trip to PRONI, at least in respect of
Archibald Hadden’s probate file. The abstract (summary) indicates he
was intestate and also that probate was granted before 1900. All the
pre 1900 files were burned in the 1922 fire. Where there was a
will, a copy was made which was kept elsewhere (so not burned) and
those are now on the PRONI site. But for intestacy cases, like this
one, nothing remains except the abstract. Sorry!
I’d be inclined to rely on the death certificate and church burial
records for the date of death. The Probate file may contain a mistake
either by the person who completed the paperwork, or even by PRONI
staff in transcribing it.
As to the ages, well they were just guesses in those days, and so
variations such as you have encountered were pretty common. For
someone in their 80s or 90s an error of up to 10 years ether way would
not be unusual.
Good luck
I must also agree. After a search of quite some years, I obtained a copy of the autobiographical notes of a relation, Rev Ross Stevenson born Carrigullen, Strabane, Co Tyrone who emigrated to New York. He writes “ Although my age was not recorded (for Father never kept a family record) yet, dear Mother told me, and she certainly knew, that I was born Nov 12, 1814. I have no recollection of the little instance, but I have no grounds for doubting mother’s account.......”.
I wonder how poor rural folk were aware of dates in the days before almanacs and calendars? Perhaps there was a neighbour who subscribed to the Strabane Morning Post and/ or the Derry Journal?
Ross studied for the Presbyterian ministry in the U.S. and was ordained; his son, Rev. Ross, junior, was minister of Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church, New York, President of Princeton Theological College etc, etc.
Ross’ autobiography is a great read and he recalls his visit home to his parents in Strabane in 1850.
Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
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From: Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneListmailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Sent: Monday, 30 November 2020 2:18 PM
To: cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.commailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Gordon Wilkinsonmailto:neredon@ozemail.com.au
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: Reply about Ballygawley Church of Ireland records & civil registration records
Elwyn, Too true. I have long recognised to ignore the 'age at death' recorded on death certs. I've got instances when even 10 years in error may be too short!!! Sadly too, birth records are often lacking. Seems nobody was interested in the birth of children, even 'blue blood', until they had survived the childhood years. Childhood mortality was rife. The marriage dates and dob are often reliable. Gordon
On 30/11/2020 10:30 am, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList wrote:
Annie,
I can perhaps save you a trip to PRONI, at least in respect of Archibald Hadden’s probate file. The abstract (summary) indicates he was intestate and also that probate was granted before 1900. All the pre 1900 files were burned in the 1922 fire. Where there was a will, a copy was made which was kept elsewhere (so not burned) and those are now on the PRONI site. But for intestacy cases, like this one, nothing remains except the abstract. Sorry!
I’d be inclined to rely on the death certificate and church burial records for the date of death. The Probate file may contain a mistake either by the person who completed the paperwork, or even by PRONI staff in transcribing it.
As to the ages, well they were just guesses in those days, and so variations such as you have encountered were pretty common. For someone in their 80s or 90s an error of up to 10 years ether way would not be unusual.
Good luck
Annie,
Have you seen this Ballygawley Hadden marriage announcement? Bendigo is a city 150 kms north of Melbourne – a major location for the production of gold in the nineteenth century.
Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
Bendigo Advertiser, November 12, 1872 (Page 2)
[cid:image002.jpg@01D6C763.FABD7BA0]
Len,
I have another example of a Minister discussing not knowing his age. Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister living in the US. This extract is from his book “The Chimney Corner revisited”:
“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to prove I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”
I have also attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI in Belfast from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of age.” He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to within 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension was being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof of age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, establishing his age accurately became relevant to him).
You ask how rural folk knew the date. They must have had some sense of the date because they knew when Sunday was, to go to church. You mention newspapers. I do know that newspapers were quite expensive, especially in the early part of the 1800s when they were taxed. Not many people could afford one (of course a lot couldn’t read anyway) but they were a valuable commodity. They passed from hand to hand and went from household to household. A bit like the elderly magazines you sometimes find in a doctor’s waiting room, people would still be reading them weeks after they had first been published.
Elwyn
On Monday, 30 November 2020, 10:18:02 GMT, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
I must also agree. After a search of quite some years, I obtained a copy of the autobiographical notes of a relation, Rev Ross Stevenson born Carrigullen, Strabane, Co Tyrone who emigrated to New York. He writes “ Although my age was not recorded (for Father never kept a family record) yet, dear Mother told me, and she certainly knew, that I was born Nov 12, 1814. I have no recollection of the little instance, but I have no grounds for doubting mother’s account.......”.
I wonder how poor rural folk were aware of dates in the days before almanacs and calendars? Perhaps there was a neighbour who subscribed to the Strabane Morning Post and/ or the Derry Journal?
Ross studied for the Presbyterian ministry in the U.S. and was ordained; his son, Rev. Ross, junior, was minister of Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church, New York, President of Princeton Theological College etc, etc.
Ross’ autobiography is a great read and he recalls his visit home to his parents in Strabane in 1850.
Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList
Sent: Monday, 30 November 2020 2:18 PM
To: cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Gordon Wilkinson
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: Reply about Ballygawley Church of Ireland records & civil registration records
Elwyn, Too true. I have long recognised to ignore the 'age at death' recorded on death certs. I've got instances when even 10 years in error may be too short!!! Sadly too, birth records are often lacking. Seems nobody was interested in the birth of children, even 'blue blood', until they had survived the childhood years. Childhood mortality was rife. The marriage dates and dob are often reliable. Gordon
On 30/11/2020 10:30 am, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList wrote:
Annie,
I can perhaps save you a trip to PRONI, at least in respect of Archibald Hadden’s probate file. The abstract (summary) indicates he was intestate and also that probate was granted before 1900. All the pre 1900 files were burned in the 1922 fire. Where there was a will, a copy was made which was kept elsewhere (so not burned) and those are now on the PRONI site. But for intestacy cases, like this one, nothing remains except the abstract. Sorry!
I’d be inclined to rely on the death certificate and church burial records for the date of death. The Probate file may contain a mistake either by the person who completed the paperwork, or even by PRONI staff in transcribing it.
As to the ages, well they were just guesses in those days, and so variations such as you have encountered were pretty common. For someone in their 80s or 90s an error of up to 10 years ether way would not be unusual.
Good luck
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Elwyn,
There are some great stories out there waiting to be told...........and in the case of Rev. Alexander Irvine, he was fortunate to have been baptised in the Established Church, had he not, I guess his DOB would have been entirely elusive.
The Old Pension claims are most interesting for what they reveal (and don’t): I purchased a set of microfiche way back in the nineties and recall being fascinated with the content extracted from the 1841 and 1851 censuses. A considerable number of applicants were unable to be located, but it was those other family members recorded in the census that is most useful. The 1841 census contains great numbers of folk who emigrated during the Famine and are now lost to us.
For my research, the extracts posed many more questions than solutions!
Newspapers were not something to light the fire with in the old days and paper was a rare commodity in many households and when they had done the rounds of the neighbourhood, they could be used to paper and fill gaps in the cracks. News would have been eagerly sought amongst neighbours who had attended the weekly market and after the service at the meeting house on Sunday.
You mention elderly magazines in waiting rooms; I can do better than that – when I was young there was always Time magazines and National Geographics and they could be up to a decade old!
Good to hear from you,
Len
Sent from Mailhttps://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 for Windows 10
From: Elwyn Souttermailto:elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Monday, 30 November 2020 10:11 PM
To: gordon.wilkinson@ozemail.com.aumailto:gordon.wilkinson@ozemail.com.au; CoTyroneIreland. com Mailing Listmailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Gordon Wilkinsonmailto:neredon@ozemail.com.au; Len Swindleymailto:len_swindley@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: Reply about Ballygawley Church of Ireland records & civil registration records
Len,
I have another example of a Minister discussing not knowing his age. Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister living in the US. This extract is from his book “The Chimney Corner revisited”:
“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to prove I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”
I have also attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI in Belfast from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of age.” He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to within 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension was being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof of age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, establishing his age accurately became relevant to him).
You ask how rural folk knew the date. They must have had some sense of the date because they knew when Sunday was, to go to church. You mention newspapers. I do know that newspapers were quite expensive, especially in the early part of the 1800s when they were taxed. Not many people could afford one (of course a lot couldn’t read anyway) but they were a valuable commodity. They passed from hand to hand and went from household to household. A bit like the elderly magazines you sometimes find in a doctor’s waiting room, people would still be reading them weeks after they had first been published.
Elwyn
On Monday, 30 November 2020, 10:18:02 GMT, Len Swindley via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
I must also agree. After a search of quite some years, I obtained a copy of the autobiographical notes of a relation, Rev Ross Stevenson born Carrigullen, Strabane, Co Tyrone who emigrated to New York. He writes “ Although my age was not recorded (for Father never kept a family record) yet, dear Mother told me, and she certainly knew, that I was born Nov 12, 1814. I have no recollection of the little instance, but I have no grounds for doubting mother’s account.......”.
I wonder how poor rural folk were aware of dates in the days before almanacs and calendars? Perhaps there was a neighbour who subscribed to the Strabane Morning Post and/ or the Derry Journal?
Ross studied for the Presbyterian ministry in the U.S. and was ordained; his son, Rev. Ross, junior, was minister of Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church, New York, President of Princeton Theological College etc, etc.
Ross’ autobiography is a great read and he recalls his visit home to his parents in Strabane in 1850.
Len Swindley, Melbourne, Australia
Sent from Mailhttps://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 for Windows 10
From: Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneListmailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Sent: Monday, 30 November 2020 2:18 PM
To: cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.commailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Gordon Wilkinsonmailto:neredon@ozemail.com.au
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: Reply about Ballygawley Church of Ireland records & civil registration records
Elwyn, Too true. I have long recognised to ignore the 'age at death' recorded on death certs. I've got instances when even 10 years in error may be too short!!! Sadly too, birth records are often lacking. Seems nobody was interested in the birth of children, even 'blue blood', until they had survived the childhood years. Childhood mortality was rife. The marriage dates and dob are often reliable. Gordon
On 30/11/2020 10:30 am, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList wrote:
Annie,
I can perhaps save you a trip to PRONI, at least in respect of Archibald Hadden’s probate file. The abstract (summary) indicates he was intestate and also that probate was granted before 1900. All the pre 1900 files were burned in the 1922 fire. Where there was a will, a copy was made which was kept elsewhere (so not burned) and those are now on the PRONI site. But for intestacy cases, like this one, nothing remains except the abstract. Sorry!
I’d be inclined to rely on the death certificate and church burial records for the date of death. The Probate file may contain a mistake either by the person who completed the paperwork, or even by PRONI staff in transcribing it.
As to the ages, well they were just guesses in those days, and so variations such as you have encountered were pretty common. For someone in their 80s or 90s an error of up to 10 years ether way would not be unusual.
Good luck
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