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Susan Elliott

Fri, Apr 28, 2023 2:53 AM

I have possibly located another piece to the puzzle of my brick wall couple John Johnston and Belle Rainey. The first record I have of them is the baptism of their daughter Sally/Sarah in 1818/1819 at Stewartstown First Presbyterian Church. Subsequent children were also baptized there. Despite exhaustive decades of work I have not been able to locate any verifiable records of the previous location of this couple or their parents. I have made DNA connections (including in CoTyrone) to one of their sons but frustratingly it is always me who is providing the information!!

I have recently decided that Belle’s full Christian name is probably Isabella. On the second marriage of the second daughter Arabella in Geelong in 1875 Isabella Johnston is stated to be the mother of the bride.

I have obtained a copy of the full death certificate of an Isabella Johnston who died in 1876 aged 76 which puts her in the correct range to be the mother of Sally/Sarah. The death took place at Lisnestrain and the witness is Sarah Kee who I definitely know is the Sarah baptized 1818/1819 above. John Johnston died in 1863 at Derrytresk - (John was a Bailiff for William Blacker). My dilemma is that Isabella is stated to be a Spinster and a Farmer’s daughter on the Death Certificate.

I am attempting to establish where John Johnston is buried so maybe Isabella would be there also. I am not hopeful of any success.

I would be grateful for any opinion on whether or not I take the information on the Death Certificate as being correct or has there been some assumptions made because it was 13 years since John’s death. Sarah Kee signed with a mark.

The only other thought I had was that this Isabella Johnston was an aunt of Sarah Kee’s (nee Johnston). Maybe Sarah’s mother died some time around the birth of the last child that I have a record of ie 1834 and this aunt helped bring up the younger children .

I have obtained a copy of the Marriage Certificates of two of the children of John and Belle but they only show the Father’s names not the Mother’s.

Thank you for any assistance that may be provided.

Susan Elliott

Sent from Mailhttps://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 for Windows

I have possibly located another piece to the puzzle of my brick wall couple John Johnston and Belle Rainey. The first record I have of them is the baptism of their daughter Sally/Sarah in 1818/1819 at Stewartstown First Presbyterian Church. Subsequent children were also baptized there. Despite exhaustive decades of work I have not been able to locate any verifiable records of the previous location of this couple or their parents. I have made DNA connections (including in CoTyrone) to one of their sons but frustratingly it is always me who is providing the information!! I have recently decided that Belle’s full Christian name is probably Isabella. On the second marriage of the second daughter Arabella in Geelong in 1875 Isabella Johnston is stated to be the mother of the bride. I have obtained a copy of the full death certificate of an Isabella Johnston who died in 1876 aged 76 which puts her in the correct range to be the mother of Sally/Sarah. The death took place at Lisnestrain and the witness is Sarah Kee who I definitely know is the Sarah baptized 1818/1819 above. John Johnston died in 1863 at Derrytresk - (John was a Bailiff for William Blacker). My dilemma is that Isabella is stated to be a Spinster and a Farmer’s daughter on the Death Certificate. I am attempting to establish where John Johnston is buried so maybe Isabella would be there also. I am not hopeful of any success. I would be grateful for any opinion on whether or not I take the information on the Death Certificate as being correct or has there been some assumptions made because it was 13 years since John’s death. Sarah Kee signed with a mark. The only other thought I had was that this Isabella Johnston was an aunt of Sarah Kee’s (nee Johnston). Maybe Sarah’s mother died some time around the birth of the last child that I have a record of ie 1834 and this aunt helped bring up the younger children . I have obtained a copy of the Marriage Certificates of two of the children of John and Belle but they only show the Father’s names not the Mother’s. Thank you for any assistance that may be provided. Susan Elliott Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

ES

Elwyn Soutter

Fri, Apr 28, 2023 9:45 AM

Susan,

That 1876 death certificate has Isabella’s occupation as “farmer’s daughter” and her marital status as “spinster.” You would expect to see “farmer’s widow” . There doesn’t seem much doubt that Sarah Kee, the informant, viewed the deceased as a single woman. If Isabella was her mother, that would be a surprising mistake to make. A mistake over age would be understandable and common, but not over marital status if it was your mother. I am doubtful this 1876 Isabella is the lady who married John Johnston.

Sarah Kee, in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Meenagh/Lisnastrane/1736674/

Sarah’s husband was William Kee (father of Thomas who married Mgt Jane Abernethy in 1886).

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10834/5951815.pdf

William died 1891:

Irish Genealogy

|
|
| |
Irish Genealogy

This Irish Government supported, official web site, is dedicated to helping you in your search for records of fa...
|

|

Your tree on Ancestry does not list any more children after Arabella was born in 1834 when Isabella would have been around 34. That was young to stop having children. Could she have died around then? (In the 1800s 1 in 8 women of childbearing age died in childbirth or from post-natal complications).

Have you searched Clonoe Church of Ireland burial records for Isabella’s death say 1834 - 1863? They start in 1824 and continue to 1957. Copy in PRONI.

Probate abstract for John Johnston:

Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Johnston late of Derrytresk in the Barony of Dungannon and County of Tyrone Farmer deceased who died 8 July 1863 at same place were granted at Armagh to James Johnston of Derrytresk aforesaid Farmer the Son and one of the next of kin of said deceased.

No mention of a widow in the abstract and I note from the Valuation Revision records on the PRONI website that the farm went straight from John Johnston to his son James in 1865 (which is when Griffiths learned of the change). So no widow mentioned there either. I suspect that’s because she was already dead.

Elwyn

On Friday, 28 April 2023, 07:32:35 BST, Susan Elliott via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

I have possibly located another piece to the puzzle of my brick wall couple John Johnston and Belle Rainey. The first record I have of them is the baptism of their daughter Sally/Sarah in 1818/1819 at Stewartstown First Presbyterian Church. Subsequent children were also baptized there. Despite exhaustive decades of work I have not been able to locate any verifiable records of the previous location of this couple or their parents. I have made DNA connections (including in CoTyrone) to one of their sons but frustratingly it is always me who is providing the information!!

I have recently decided that Belle’s full Christian name is probably Isabella. On the second marriage of the second daughter Arabella in Geelong in 1875 Isabella Johnston is stated to be the mother of the bride.

I have obtained a copy of the full death certificate of an Isabella Johnston who died in 1876 aged 76 which puts her in the correct range to be the mother of Sally/Sarah. The death took place at Lisnestrain and the witness is Sarah Kee who I definitely know is the Sarah baptized 1818/1819 above. John Johnston died in 1863 at Derrytresk - (John was a Bailiff for William Blacker). My dilemma is that Isabella is stated to be a Spinster and a Farmer’s daughter on the Death Certificate.

I am attempting to establish where John Johnston is buried so maybe Isabella would be there also. I am not hopeful of any success.

I would be grateful for any opinion on whether or not I take the information on the Death Certificate as being correct or has there been some assumptions made because it was 13 years since John’s death. Sarah Kee signed with a mark.

The only other thought I had was that this Isabella Johnston was an aunt of Sarah Kee’s (nee Johnston). Maybe Sarah’s mother died some time around the birth of the last child that I have a record of ie 1834 and this aunt helped bring up the younger children .

I have obtained a copy of the Marriage Certificates of two of the children of John and Belle but they only show the Father’s names not the Mother’s.

Thank you for any assistance that may be provided.

Susan Elliott

Sent from Mail for Windows

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Susan, That 1876 death certificate has Isabella’s occupation as “farmer’s daughter” and her marital status as “spinster.” You would expect to see “farmer’s widow” . There doesn’t seem much doubt that Sarah Kee, the informant, viewed the deceased as a single woman. If Isabella was her mother, that would be a surprising mistake to make. A mistake over age would be understandable and common, but not over marital status if it was your mother. I am doubtful this 1876 Isabella is the lady who married John Johnston. Sarah Kee, in the 1901 census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Meenagh/Lisnastrane/1736674/ Sarah’s husband was William Kee (father of Thomas who married Mgt Jane Abernethy in 1886). https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10834/5951815.pdf William died 1891: Irish Genealogy | | | | Irish Genealogy This Irish Government supported, official web site, is dedicated to helping you in your search for records of fa... | | | Your tree on Ancestry does not list any more children after Arabella was born in 1834 when Isabella would have been around 34. That was young to stop having children. Could she have died around then? (In the 1800s 1 in 8 women of childbearing age died in childbirth or from post-natal complications). Have you searched Clonoe Church of Ireland burial records for Isabella’s death say 1834 - 1863? They start in 1824 and continue to 1957. Copy in PRONI. Probate abstract for John Johnston: Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Johnston late of Derrytresk in the Barony of Dungannon and County of Tyrone Farmer deceased who died 8 July 1863 at same place were granted at Armagh to James Johnston of Derrytresk aforesaid Farmer the Son and one of the next of kin of said deceased. No mention of a widow in the abstract and I note from the Valuation Revision records on the PRONI website that the farm went straight from John Johnston to his son James in 1865 (which is when Griffiths learned of the change). So no widow mentioned there either. I suspect that’s because she was already dead. Elwyn On Friday, 28 April 2023, 07:32:35 BST, Susan Elliott via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote: I have possibly located another piece to the puzzle of my brick wall couple John Johnston and Belle Rainey. The first record I have of them is the baptism of their daughter Sally/Sarah in 1818/1819 at Stewartstown First Presbyterian Church. Subsequent children were also baptized there. Despite exhaustive decades of work I have not been able to locate any verifiable records of the previous location of this couple or their parents. I have made DNA connections (including in CoTyrone) to one of their sons but frustratingly it is always me who is providing the information!! I have recently decided that Belle’s full Christian name is probably Isabella. On the second marriage of the second daughter Arabella in Geelong in 1875 Isabella Johnston is stated to be the mother of the bride. I have obtained a copy of the full death certificate of an Isabella Johnston who died in 1876 aged 76 which puts her in the correct range to be the mother of Sally/Sarah. The death took place at Lisnestrain and the witness is Sarah Kee who I definitely know is the Sarah baptized 1818/1819 above. John Johnston died in 1863 at Derrytresk - (John was a Bailiff for William Blacker). My dilemma is that Isabella is stated to be a Spinster and a Farmer’s daughter on the Death Certificate. I am attempting to establish where John Johnston is buried so maybe Isabella would be there also. I am not hopeful of any success. I would be grateful for any opinion on whether or not I take the information on the Death Certificate as being correct or has there been some assumptions made because it was 13 years since John’s death. Sarah Kee signed with a mark. The only other thought I had was that this Isabella Johnston was an aunt of Sarah Kee’s (nee Johnston). Maybe Sarah’s mother died some time around the birth of the last child that I have a record of ie 1834 and this aunt helped bring up the younger children . I have obtained a copy of the Marriage Certificates of two of the children of John and Belle but they only show the Father’s names not the Mother’s. Thank you for any assistance that may be provided. Susan Elliott Sent from Mail for Windows ================================= Send a Message to the List - cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com List Archive - https://list.cotyroneireland.com/empathy/list/cotyronelist.list.cotyroneireland.com Join the list by sending an email to - cotyronelist-subscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com To receive the Digest version, send an email to - cotyronelist-owner@list.cotyroneireland.com Unsubscribe by sending an email to - cotyronelist-unsubscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com =================================

IM

Ian Moules

Fri, Apr 28, 2023 10:03 AM

Just a thought. Given that the daughters name wasArabella, is it possible that the mothers name was also Arabella (if I have understood you correctly).

Sent from the all-new AOL app for iOS

On Friday, April 28, 2023, 10:46 am, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:

Susan,

That 1876 death certificate has Isabella’s occupation as “farmer’s daughter” and her marital status as “spinster.” You would expect to see “farmer’s widow” . There doesn’t seem much doubt that Sarah Kee, the informant, viewed the deceased as a single woman. If Isabella was her mother, that would be a surprising mistake to make. A mistake over age would be understandable and common, but not over marital status if it was your mother. I am doubtful this 1876 Isabella is the lady who married John Johnston.

Sarah Kee, in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Meenagh/Lisnastrane/1736674/

Sarah’s husband was William Kee (father of Thomas who married Mgt Jane Abernethy in 1886).

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10834/5951815.pdf

William died 1891:

Irish Genealogy

|
|
| |
Irish Genealogy

This Irish Government supported, official web site, is dedicated to helping you in your search for records of fa...
|

|

Your tree on Ancestry does not list any more children after Arabella was born in 1834 when Isabella would have been around 34. That was young to stop having children. Could she have died around then? (In the 1800s 1 in 8 women of childbearing age died in childbirth or from post-natal complications).

Have you searched Clonoe Church of Ireland burial records for Isabella’s death say 1834 - 1863? They start in 1824 and continue to 1957. Copy in PRONI.

Probate abstract for John Johnston:

Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Johnston late of Derrytresk in the Barony of Dungannon and County of Tyrone Farmer deceased who died 8 July 1863 at same place were granted at Armagh to James Johnston of Derrytresk aforesaid Farmer the Son and one of the next of kin of said deceased.

No mention of a widow in the abstract and I note from the Valuation Revision records on the PRONI website that the farm went straight from John Johnston to his son James in 1865 (which is when Griffiths learned of the change). So no widow mentioned there either. I suspect that’s because she was already dead.

Elwyn

On Friday, 28 April 2023, 07:32:35 BST, Susan Elliott via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

I have possibly located another piece to the puzzle of my brick wall couple John Johnston and Belle Rainey. The first record I have of them is the baptism of their daughter Sally/Sarah in 1818/1819 at Stewartstown First Presbyterian Church. Subsequent children were also baptized there. Despite exhaustive decades of work I have not been able to locate any verifiable records of the previous location of this couple or their parents. I have made DNA connections (including in CoTyrone) to one of their sons but frustratingly it is always me who is providing the information!!

I have recently decided that Belle’s full Christian name is probably Isabella. On the second marriage of the second daughter Arabella in Geelong in 1875 Isabella Johnston is stated to be the mother of the bride.

I have obtained a copy of the full death certificate of an Isabella Johnston who died in 1876 aged 76 which puts her in the correct range to be the mother of Sally/Sarah. The death took place at Lisnestrain and the witness is Sarah Kee who I definitely know is the Sarah baptized 1818/1819 above. John Johnston died in 1863 at Derrytresk - (John was a Bailiff for William Blacker). My dilemma is that Isabella is stated to be a Spinster and a Farmer’s daughter on the Death Certificate.

I am attempting to establish where John Johnston is buried so maybe Isabella would be there also. I am not hopeful of any success.

I would be grateful for any opinion on whether or not I take the information on the Death Certificate as being correct or has there been some assumptions made because it was 13 years since John’s death. Sarah Kee signed with a mark.

The only other thought I had was that this Isabella Johnston was an aunt of Sarah Kee’s (nee Johnston). Maybe Sarah’s mother died some time around the birth of the last child that I have a record of ie 1834 and this aunt helped bring up the younger children .

I have obtained a copy of the Marriage Certificates of two of the children of John and Belle but they only show the Father’s names not the Mother’s.

Thank you for any assistance that may be provided.

Susan Elliott

Sent from Mail for Windows

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Just a thought. Given that the daughters name wasArabella, is it possible that the mothers name was also Arabella (if I have understood you correctly). Sent from the all-new AOL app for iOS On Friday, April 28, 2023, 10:46 am, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote: Susan, That 1876 death certificate has Isabella’s occupation as “farmer’s daughter” and her marital status as “spinster.” You would expect to see “farmer’s widow” . There doesn’t seem much doubt that Sarah Kee, the informant, viewed the deceased as a single woman. If Isabella was her mother, that would be a surprising mistake to make. A mistake over age would be understandable and common, but not over marital status if it was your mother. I am doubtful this 1876 Isabella is the lady who married John Johnston. Sarah Kee, in the 1901 census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Meenagh/Lisnastrane/1736674/ Sarah’s husband was William Kee (father of Thomas who married Mgt Jane Abernethy in 1886). https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10834/5951815.pdf William died 1891: Irish Genealogy | | | | Irish Genealogy This Irish Government supported, official web site, is dedicated to helping you in your search for records of fa... | | | Your tree on Ancestry does not list any more children after Arabella was born in 1834 when Isabella would have been around 34. That was young to stop having children. Could she have died around then? (In the 1800s 1 in 8 women of childbearing age died in childbirth or from post-natal complications). Have you searched Clonoe Church of Ireland burial records for Isabella’s death say 1834 - 1863? They start in 1824 and continue to 1957. Copy in PRONI. Probate abstract for John Johnston: Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Johnston late of Derrytresk in the Barony of Dungannon and County of Tyrone Farmer deceased who died 8 July 1863 at same place were granted at Armagh to James Johnston of Derrytresk aforesaid Farmer the Son and one of the next of kin of said deceased. No mention of a widow in the abstract and I note from the Valuation Revision records on the PRONI website that the farm went straight from John Johnston to his son James in 1865 (which is when Griffiths learned of the change). So no widow mentioned there either. I suspect that’s because she was already dead. Elwyn On Friday, 28 April 2023, 07:32:35 BST, Susan Elliott via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote: I have possibly located another piece to the puzzle of my brick wall couple John Johnston and Belle Rainey. The first record I have of them is the baptism of their daughter Sally/Sarah in 1818/1819 at Stewartstown First Presbyterian Church. Subsequent children were also baptized there. Despite exhaustive decades of work I have not been able to locate any verifiable records of the previous location of this couple or their parents. I have made DNA connections (including in CoTyrone) to one of their sons but frustratingly it is always me who is providing the information!! I have recently decided that Belle’s full Christian name is probably Isabella. On the second marriage of the second daughter Arabella in Geelong in 1875 Isabella Johnston is stated to be the mother of the bride. I have obtained a copy of the full death certificate of an Isabella Johnston who died in 1876 aged 76 which puts her in the correct range to be the mother of Sally/Sarah. The death took place at Lisnestrain and the witness is Sarah Kee who I definitely know is the Sarah baptized 1818/1819 above. John Johnston died in 1863 at Derrytresk - (John was a Bailiff for William Blacker). My dilemma is that Isabella is stated to be a Spinster and a Farmer’s daughter on the Death Certificate. I am attempting to establish where John Johnston is buried so maybe Isabella would be there also. I am not hopeful of any success. I would be grateful for any opinion on whether or not I take the information on the Death Certificate as being correct or has there been some assumptions made because it was 13 years since John’s death. Sarah Kee signed with a mark. The only other thought I had was that this Isabella Johnston was an aunt of Sarah Kee’s (nee Johnston). Maybe Sarah’s mother died some time around the birth of the last child that I have a record of ie 1834 and this aunt helped bring up the younger children . I have obtained a copy of the Marriage Certificates of two of the children of John and Belle but they only show the Father’s names not the Mother’s. Thank you for any assistance that may be provided. Susan Elliott Sent from Mail for Windows ================================= Send a Message to the List - cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com List Archive - https://list.cotyroneireland.com/empathy/list/cotyronelist.list.cotyroneireland.com Join the list by sending an email to - cotyronelist-subscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com To receive the Digest version, send an email to - cotyronelist-owner@list.cotyroneireland.com Unsubscribe by sending an email to - cotyronelist-unsubscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com ================================= ================================= Send a Message to the List - cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com List Archive - https://list.cotyroneireland.com/empathy/list/cotyronelist.list.cotyroneireland.com Join the list by sending an email to - cotyronelist-subscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com To receive the Digest version, send an email to - cotyronelist-owner@list.cotyroneireland.com Unsubscribe by sending an email to - cotyronelist-unsubscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com =================================

SE

Susan Elliott

Fri, Apr 28, 2023 12:38 PM

Thank you so much Elwyn and Ian for taking the time to assist me.

I did expect that the information on the Death Certificate was correct but however was hopeful of another opinion.

I have no knowledge of any other Baptisms after Arabella in 1834. Robert Williams of Ulster Ancestry researched this family for me in 2010 and did not come up with any other children.

Robert also reported on the Burials in CI Clonoe from 1824-1857 and there is no Isabella/Belle/Arabella Johnston there. There was a break in entries between 1838 and 1839. William Kee’s parents are buried in the CI Clonoe (which I have visited).

The Johnston’s were Presbyterians and I understand that some of their descendants worshipped at Newmills Presbyterian Church. Sally/Sarah Johnston married William Kee in the Church of Ireland. The only record of the marriage is in a book titled “Armagh Marriage Licence Bonds – Greenway Richard to Miller Anne Vol 2 1727-1845 2 Ireland Public Record Office. The Bonds survived until 1922 when they were destroyed in the PRO fire.

I agree with your thoughts on Isabella not surviving John per the Letters of Administration. I have searched the Valuation Revision Books for the full time the Johnston family held property in Derrytresk.

Ian, I have considered the naming pattern for Isabella/Arabella. Nothing fits the usual Irish Scots naming patterns.

I have written to the Newmills Presbyterian Church to see if John may be buried there. Newmills is closer to Derrytresk than Stewartstown. If I receive a negative reply I will contact the Stewartstown Presbyterian Church. That is where daughter Arabella Johnston was married to George Newell in 1854.

Thank you so much again
Susan Elliott
Melbourne Australia

From: Elwyn Soutter [mailto:elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, 28 April 2023 7:46 PM
To: cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Susan Elliott susanelliott1@outlook.com
Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Verifying an Ireland Civil Registration Death Certificate

Susan,

That 1876 death certificate has Isabella’s occupation as “farmer’s daughter” and her marital status as “spinster.” You would expect to see “farmer’s widow” . There doesn’t seem much doubt that Sarah Kee, the informant, viewed the deceased as a single woman. If Isabella was her mother, that would be a surprising mistake to make. A mistake over age would be understandable and common, but not over marital status if it was your mother. I am doubtful this 1876 Isabella is the lady who married John Johnston.

Sarah Kee, in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Meenagh/Lisnastrane/1736674/

Sarah’s husband was William Kee (father of Thomas who married Mgt Jane Abernethy in 1886).

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10834/5951815.pdf

William died 1891:

Irish Genealogyhttps://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06075/4732406.pdf

Irish Genealogy

This Irish Government supported, official web site, is dedicated to helping you in your search for records of fa...

Your tree on Ancestry does not list any more children after Arabella was born in 1834 when Isabella would have been around 34. That was young to stop having children. Could she have died around then? (In the 1800s 1 in 8 women of childbearing age died in childbirth or from post-natal complications).

Have you searched Clonoe Church of Ireland burial records for Isabella’s death say 1834 - 1863? They start in 1824 and continue to 1957. Copy in PRONI.

Probate abstract for John Johnston:

Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Johnston late of Derrytresk in the Barony of Dungannon and County of Tyrone Farmer deceased who died 8 July 1863 at same place were granted at Armagh to James Johnston of Derrytresk aforesaid Farmer the Son and one of the next of kin of said deceased.

No mention of a widow in the abstract and I note from the Valuation Revision records on the PRONI website that the farm went straight from John Johnston to his son James in 1865 (which is when Griffiths learned of the change). So no widow mentioned there either. I suspect that’s because she was already dead.

Elwyn

On Friday, 28 April 2023, 07:32:35 BST, Susan Elliott via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com mailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

I have possibly located another piece to the puzzle of my brick wall couple John Johnston and Belle Rainey. The first record I have of them is the baptism of their daughter Sally/Sarah in 1818/1819 at Stewartstown First Presbyterian Church. Subsequent children were also baptized there. Despite exhaustive decades of work I have not been able to locate any verifiable records of the previous location of this couple or their parents. I have made DNA connections (including in CoTyrone) to one of their sons but frustratingly it is always me who is providing the information!!

I have recently decided that Belle’s full Christian name is probably Isabella. On the second marriage of the second daughter Arabella in Geelong in 1875 Isabella Johnston is stated to be the mother of the bride.

I have obtained a copy of the full death certificate of an Isabella Johnston who died in 1876 aged 76 which puts her in the correct range to be the mother of Sally/Sarah. The death took place at Lisnestrain and the witness is Sarah Kee who I definitely know is the Sarah baptized 1818/1819 above. John Johnston died in 1863 at Derrytresk - (John was a Bailiff for William Blacker). My dilemma is that Isabella is stated to be a Spinster and a Farmer’s daughter on the Death Certificate.

I am attempting to establish where John Johnston is buried so maybe Isabella would be there also. I am not hopeful of any success.

I would be grateful for any opinion on whether or not I take the information on the Death Certificate as being correct or has there been some assumptions made because it was 13 years since John’s death. Sarah Kee signed with a mark.

The only other thought I had was that this Isabella Johnston was an aunt of Sarah Kee’s (nee Johnston). Maybe Sarah’s mother died some time around the birth of the last child that I have a record of ie 1834 and this aunt helped bring up the younger children .

I have obtained a copy of the Marriage Certificates of two of the children of John and Belle but they only show the Father’s names not the Mother’s.

Thank you for any assistance that may be provided.

Susan Elliott

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Thank you so much Elwyn and Ian for taking the time to assist me. I did expect that the information on the Death Certificate was correct but however was hopeful of another opinion. I have no knowledge of any other Baptisms after Arabella in 1834. Robert Williams of Ulster Ancestry researched this family for me in 2010 and did not come up with any other children. Robert also reported on the Burials in CI Clonoe from 1824-1857 and there is no Isabella/Belle/Arabella Johnston there. There was a break in entries between 1838 and 1839. William Kee’s parents are buried in the CI Clonoe (which I have visited). The Johnston’s were Presbyterians and I understand that some of their descendants worshipped at Newmills Presbyterian Church. Sally/Sarah Johnston married William Kee in the Church of Ireland. The only record of the marriage is in a book titled “Armagh Marriage Licence Bonds – Greenway Richard to Miller Anne Vol 2 1727-1845 2 Ireland Public Record Office. The Bonds survived until 1922 when they were destroyed in the PRO fire. I agree with your thoughts on Isabella not surviving John per the Letters of Administration. I have searched the Valuation Revision Books for the full time the Johnston family held property in Derrytresk. Ian, I have considered the naming pattern for Isabella/Arabella. Nothing fits the usual Irish Scots naming patterns. I have written to the Newmills Presbyterian Church to see if John may be buried there. Newmills is closer to Derrytresk than Stewartstown. If I receive a negative reply I will contact the Stewartstown Presbyterian Church. That is where daughter Arabella Johnston was married to George Newell in 1854. Thank you so much again Susan Elliott Melbourne Australia From: Elwyn Soutter [mailto:elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Friday, 28 April 2023 7:46 PM To: cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com Cc: Susan Elliott <susanelliott1@outlook.com> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Verifying an Ireland Civil Registration Death Certificate Susan, That 1876 death certificate has Isabella’s occupation as “farmer’s daughter” and her marital status as “spinster.” You would expect to see “farmer’s widow” . There doesn’t seem much doubt that Sarah Kee, the informant, viewed the deceased as a single woman. If Isabella was her mother, that would be a surprising mistake to make. A mistake over age would be understandable and common, but not over marital status if it was your mother. I am doubtful this 1876 Isabella is the lady who married John Johnston. Sarah Kee, in the 1901 census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Meenagh/Lisnastrane/1736674/ Sarah’s husband was William Kee (father of Thomas who married Mgt Jane Abernethy in 1886). https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10834/5951815.pdf William died 1891: Irish Genealogy<https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06075/4732406.pdf> Irish Genealogy This Irish Government supported, official web site, is dedicated to helping you in your search for records of fa... Your tree on Ancestry does not list any more children after Arabella was born in 1834 when Isabella would have been around 34. That was young to stop having children. Could she have died around then? (In the 1800s 1 in 8 women of childbearing age died in childbirth or from post-natal complications). Have you searched Clonoe Church of Ireland burial records for Isabella’s death say 1834 - 1863? They start in 1824 and continue to 1957. Copy in PRONI. Probate abstract for John Johnston: Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Johnston late of Derrytresk in the Barony of Dungannon and County of Tyrone Farmer deceased who died 8 July 1863 at same place were granted at Armagh to James Johnston of Derrytresk aforesaid Farmer the Son and one of the next of kin of said deceased. No mention of a widow in the abstract and I note from the Valuation Revision records on the PRONI website that the farm went straight from John Johnston to his son James in 1865 (which is when Griffiths learned of the change). So no widow mentioned there either. I suspect that’s because she was already dead. Elwyn On Friday, 28 April 2023, 07:32:35 BST, Susan Elliott via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com<mailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com>> wrote: I have possibly located another piece to the puzzle of my brick wall couple John Johnston and Belle Rainey. The first record I have of them is the baptism of their daughter Sally/Sarah in 1818/1819 at Stewartstown First Presbyterian Church. Subsequent children were also baptized there. Despite exhaustive decades of work I have not been able to locate any verifiable records of the previous location of this couple or their parents. I have made DNA connections (including in CoTyrone) to one of their sons but frustratingly it is always me who is providing the information!! I have recently decided that Belle’s full Christian name is probably Isabella. On the second marriage of the second daughter Arabella in Geelong in 1875 Isabella Johnston is stated to be the mother of the bride. I have obtained a copy of the full death certificate of an Isabella Johnston who died in 1876 aged 76 which puts her in the correct range to be the mother of Sally/Sarah. The death took place at Lisnestrain and the witness is Sarah Kee who I definitely know is the Sarah baptized 1818/1819 above. John Johnston died in 1863 at Derrytresk - (John was a Bailiff for William Blacker). My dilemma is that Isabella is stated to be a Spinster and a Farmer’s daughter on the Death Certificate. I am attempting to establish where John Johnston is buried so maybe Isabella would be there also. I am not hopeful of any success. I would be grateful for any opinion on whether or not I take the information on the Death Certificate as being correct or has there been some assumptions made because it was 13 years since John’s death. Sarah Kee signed with a mark. The only other thought I had was that this Isabella Johnston was an aunt of Sarah Kee’s (nee Johnston). Maybe Sarah’s mother died some time around the birth of the last child that I have a record of ie 1834 and this aunt helped bring up the younger children . I have obtained a copy of the Marriage Certificates of two of the children of John and Belle but they only show the Father’s names not the Mother’s. Thank you for any assistance that may be provided. Susan Elliott Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows ================================= Send a Message to the List - cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com<mailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> List Archive - https://list.cotyroneireland.com/empathy/list/cotyronelist.list.cotyroneireland.com Join the list by sending an email to - cotyronelist-subscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com<mailto:cotyronelist-subscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com> To receive the Digest version, send an email to - cotyronelist-owner@list.cotyroneireland.com<mailto:cotyronelist-owner@list.cotyroneireland.com> Unsubscribe by sending an email to - cotyronelist-unsubscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com<mailto:cotyronelist-unsubscribe@list.cotyroneireland.com> =================================

ES

Elwyn Soutter

Fri, Apr 28, 2023 4:39 PM

Susan,

Keep an open mind on the place of burial for the Johnston family. It wasn’t uncommon for Presbyterians to be buried in Church of Ireland graveyards. There are various reasons for this, including the fact that many Presbyterian churches didn’t have graveyards. So it’s not uncommon to find folk buried in graveyards not connected to the church they attended, especially if the family had a plot there.

The Church of Ireland only kept burial records for it’s own congregation, so other denominations would not normally appear in the Clonoe burial records.

Few Presbyterian churches kept burial records, so if the family is in a Presbyterian graveyard, then you have to hope there’s a legible gravestone. I checked the PRONI guide to Church records but neither Newmills, Stewartstown 1st or Stewartstown 2nd Presbyterian churches are shown as having any burial records.

Elwyn

On Friday, 28 April 2023, 13:38:09 BST, Susan Elliott <susanelliott1@outlook.com> wrote: