Old photo - seeking input - possibly Scotland?
Hello listers!
Attached is a photo that was "hiding" in a bin with some old family
photos that I was scanning today... reportedly Carrie Butterfield Wathey
(my dad's grandmother, on his mom's side) is in this picture, and the
woman in the upper right certainly looks like other pictures that I have
of her from the time. Carrie was my born in Providence RI in 1873 to
John Campbell Wathey (Irish) and Caroline Hanley from Scotland.
In 1895 (at age 21) Carrie went on a two-month trip to Scotland via "The
City of Rome" (Inman line) to spend time with aunts, uncles, and cousins
to convalesce from malaria -- during which time she wrote a delightful
diary (14 pages typewritten, transcribed by my grandma - Carrie's
daughter - and typed up at some point by my dad's sister).
While mostly it seems there were visits and tea parties, Carrie mentions
going from Glasgow (where her cousins whom she was visiting lived) to
Eaglesham and to Cathcart (to visit family and see where Mary Queen of
Scots ruled), and then Milngavie to have a picnic and see the
waterworks... this Milngavie jaunt even mentions 10 young ladies
together having fun and meeting a couple of young men who took our
photo... Note that the attached picture has 10 women, one man, plus a
photographer. The image looks unusual to me because of the hats worn by
the women, very simple in style and a bit "vertically inclined" in the
center. (Can you tell I know nothing about hats LOL).
So while there is a TON of conjecture and leaping from one item to the
next, things do somewhat hang together as this MIGHT be the photo from
her trip in 1895 to Scotland!
Long story short, I am wondering if anyone knows if the people's attire
seems "typically Scottish" in any and if you have a sense of the
timeframe of the picture? Ideas welcome for how to track down the
Scottish side of the family, who were apparently called Wathieu in
Scotland. I've done no research work in Scotland, with most of my focus
on County Tyrone (Venables near Clogher) and County Leitrim (Knotts).
Thanks for any ideas or input,
Dave
PS: Should anyone be interested, I'm happy to send the diary to you
offline.
Dave,
Can’t help with the clothing at all. My knowledge is zero, though I can’t help thinking that by 1895 people across the whole of the UK and Ireland probably wore pretty similar styles.
If you go to the Scotlandspeople site (pay to view) you can search the Scottish censuses (as well as a variety of other Scottish records). Searching the 1901 census, I don’t see any Wathieu families at all. I see just 3 Wathew families in the Glasgow area. 1 in St Rollox registration area (6 people), a second in Partick (2 people) and a third in Dennistoun (5 people). The indexes will give you their names and ages. If you want to see the full census return you need to pay. It’s about £1.60 (sterling) per page.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-our-records
If any of the names look like your family, you can use the same site to search earlier censuses, back to 1841 as well as for birth, death & marriage certificates for them. You can also search the 1911 & 1921 censuses.
Birth, death & marriage registration started in Scotland in 1855. Prior to that you need to use church baptism records, same as Ireland. Mainstream denominations baptism & marriage records ie Presbyterian and Catholic are on the same website.
Save for the years 1856 -1860, Scottish birth certificates record where and when the parents married. Their marriage certificates also record both parents details (as opposed to Irish & English certificates which only have the fathers names and occupations) and also whether they were alive or dead on that date.
Scottish research is a lot easier than Irish!
Cathcart today is very much part of Glasgow. It’s a southern suburb. Eaglesham (pronounced Eagle-sham) is a little further on the southern edge of the city. Perhaps 10 miles from the city centre. Milngavie (pronounced Mill-guy) is on the northern edge of the city perhaps 7 miles from the city centre. Easily accessible by train (then and now). So none of the 3 places Carrie visited were very far out of town.
Here’s a link to the Milngavie reservoir they visited. Still very much in existence today. (I remember it as a child). We always knew it as Mugdock reservoir.
Milngavie Reservoir - Scottish Water
|
|
| |
Milngavie Reservoir - Scottish Water
|
|
|
Elwyn
On Monday 26 August 2024 at 01:47:56 BST, Dave Vanable via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
Hello listers!
Attached is a photo that was "hiding" in a bin with some old family photos that I was scanning today... reportedly Carrie Butterfield Wathey (my dad's grandmother, on his mom's side) is in this picture, and the woman in the upper right certainly looks like other pictures that I have of her from the time. Carrie was my born in Providence RI in 1873 to John Campbell Wathey (Irish) and Caroline Hanley from Scotland.
In 1895 (at age 21) Carrie went on a two-month trip to Scotland via "The City of Rome" (Inman line) to spend time with aunts, uncles, and cousins to convalesce from malaria -- during which time she wrote a delightful diary (14 pages typewritten, transcribed by my grandma - Carrie's daughter - and typed up at some point by my dad's sister).
While mostly it seems there were visits and tea parties, Carrie mentions going from Glasgow (where her cousins whom she was visiting lived) to Eaglesham and to Cathcart (to visit family and see where Mary Queen of Scots ruled), and then Milngavie to have a picnic and see the waterworks... this Milngavie jaunt even mentions 10 young ladies together having fun and meeting a couple of young men who took our photo... Note that the attached picture has 10 women, one man, plus a photographer. The image looks unusual to me because of the hats worn by the women, very simple in style and a bit "vertically inclined" in the center. (Can you tell I know nothing about hats LOL).
So while there is a TON of conjecture and leaping from one item to the next, things do somewhat hang together as this MIGHT be the photo from her trip in 1895 to Scotland!
Long story short, I am wondering if anyone knows if the people's attire seems "typically Scottish" in any and if you have a sense of the timeframe of the picture? Ideas welcome for how to track down the Scottish side of the family, who were apparently called Wathieu in Scotland. I've done no research work in Scotland, with most of my focus on County Tyrone (Venables near Clogher) and County Leitrim (Knotts).
Thanks for any ideas or input, Dave PS: Should anyone be interested, I'm happy to send the diary to you offline.
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Hi Dave
An interesting snapshot of people and of history!
I’m no fashion expert but those clothes remind me of the era of the suffragettes. I THINK that was mainly the earliest years of the 20th Century. But I’m sure someone more knowledgable will be able to advise on the timing of that particularly ghastly era for the women of England. Meanwhile here in Australia women had already been granted the vote, but shamefully not the First Nations people! But I digress!
So I’m wondering if this might have been just a bit later than 1895 that you thought. I don’t know if this style was around before the turn of the century but I’d have put it as more 20thC than late 19thC. So hopefully someone will know. But my instant reaction when I saw the photo was to remember suffragettes dressed like that.
Good luck with finding out
Regards Chris Owen nee McCormack from Tyrone (and heading to Ireland this December)
On 26 Aug 2024, at 14:31, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
Dave,
Can’t help with the clothing at all. My knowledge is zero, though I can’t help thinking that by 1895 people across the whole of the UK and Ireland probably wore pretty similar styles.
If you go to the Scotlandspeople site (pay to view) you can search the Scottish censuses (as well as a variety of other Scottish records). Searching the 1901 census, I don’t see any Wathieu families at all. I see just 3 Wathew families in the Glasgow area. 1 in St Rollox registration area (6 people), a second in Partick (2 people) and a third in Dennistoun (5 people). The indexes will give you their names and ages. If you want to see the full census return you need to pay. It’s about £1.60 (sterling) per page.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-our-records
If any of the names look like your family, you can use the same site to search earlier censuses, back to 1841 as well as for birth, death & marriage certificates for them. You can also search the 1911 & 1921 censuses.
Birth, death & marriage registration started in Scotland in 1855. Prior to that you need to use church baptism records, same as Ireland. Mainstream denominations baptism & marriage records ie Presbyterian and Catholic are on the same website.
Save for the years 1856 -1860, Scottish birth certificates record where and when the parents married. Their marriage certificates also record both parents details (as opposed to Irish & English certificates which only have the fathers names and occupations) and also whether they were alive or dead on that date.
Scottish research is a lot easier than Irish!
Cathcart today is very much part of Glasgow. It’s a southern suburb. Eaglesham (pronounced Eagle-sham) is a little further on the southern edge of the city. Perhaps 10 miles from the city centre. Milngavie (pronounced Mill-guy) is on the northern edge of the city perhaps 7 miles from the city centre. Easily accessible by train (then and now). So none of the 3 places Carrie visited were very far out of town.
Here’s a link to the Milngavie reservoir they visited. Still very much in existence today. (I remember it as a child). We always knew it as Mugdock reservoir.
Milngavie Reservoir - Scottish Water https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/In-Your-Area/Visiting-our-Reservoirs/Sites/Milngavie-Reservoir
Milngavie Reservoir - Scottish Water
https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/In-Your-Area/Visiting-our-Reservoirs/Sites/Milngavie-Reservoir
Elwyn
On Monday 26 August 2024 at 01:47:56 BST, Dave Vanable via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
Hello listers!
Attached is a photo that was "hiding" in a bin with some old family photos that I was scanning today... reportedly Carrie Butterfield Wathey (my dad's grandmother, on his mom's side) is in this picture, and the woman in the upper right certainly looks like other pictures that I have of her from the time. Carrie was my born in Providence RI in 1873 to John Campbell Wathey (Irish) and Caroline Hanley from Scotland.
In 1895 (at age 21) Carrie went on a two-month trip to Scotland via "The City of Rome" (Inman line) to spend time with aunts, uncles, and cousins to convalesce from malaria -- during which time she wrote a delightful diary (14 pages typewritten, transcribed by my grandma - Carrie's daughter - and typed up at some point by my dad's sister).
While mostly it seems there were visits and tea parties, Carrie mentions going from Glasgow (where her cousins whom she was visiting lived) to Eaglesham and to Cathcart (to visit family and see where Mary Queen of Scots ruled), and then Milngavie to have a picnic and see the waterworks... this Milngavie jaunt even mentions 10 young ladies together having fun and meeting a couple of young men who took our photo... Note that the attached picture has 10 women, one man, plus a photographer. The image looks unusual to me because of the hats worn by the women, very simple in style and a bit "vertically inclined" in the center. (Can you tell I know nothing about hats LOL).
So while there is a TON of conjecture and leaping from one item to the next, things do somewhat hang together as this MIGHT be the photo from her trip in 1895 to Scotland!
Long story short, I am wondering if anyone knows if the people's attire seems "typically Scottish" in any and if you have a sense of the timeframe of the picture? Ideas welcome for how to track down the Scottish side of the family, who were apparently called Wathieu in Scotland. I've done no research work in Scotland, with most of my focus on County Tyrone (Venables near Clogher) and County Leitrim (Knotts).
Thanks for any ideas or input,
Dave
PS: Should anyone be interested, I'm happy to send the diary to you offline.
Another line to follow might be the style of the haystack. Was that type of stacking used in Scotland?
Someone with Scottish farming heritage may know.
The only similar haystack photos I could find doing a bit of googling were in Eastern Europe, but Scotland may well have had similar.
I am certainly not a vintage fashion expert but the type of hats suggests (to me) something more Eastern European than Scottish.
But I could be totally wrong!
I’m just guessing.
James
From: Dave Vanable via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Sent: Monday, 26 August 2024 10:48 AM
To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Dave Vanable dave@dawnwalk.com
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Old photo - seeking input - possibly Scotland?
Hello listers!
Attached is a photo that was "hiding" in a bin with some old family photos that I was scanning today... reportedly Carrie Butterfield Wathey (my dad's grandmother, on his mom's side) is in this picture, and the woman in the upper right certainly looks like other pictures that I have of her from the time. Carrie was my born in Providence RI in 1873 to John Campbell Wathey (Irish) and Caroline Hanley from Scotland.
In 1895 (at age 21) Carrie went on a two-month trip to Scotland via "The City of Rome" (Inman line) to spend time with aunts, uncles, and cousins to convalesce from malaria -- during which time she wrote a delightful diary (14 pages typewritten, transcribed by my grandma - Carrie's daughter - and typed up at some point by my dad's sister).
While mostly it seems there were visits and tea parties, Carrie mentions going from Glasgow (where her cousins whom she was visiting lived) to Eaglesham and to Cathcart (to visit family and see where Mary Queen of Scots ruled), and then Milngavie to have a picnic and see the waterworks... this Milngavie jaunt even mentions 10 young ladies together having fun and meeting a couple of young men who took our photo... Note that the attached picture has 10 women, one man, plus a photographer. The image looks unusual to me because of the hats worn by the women, very simple in style and a bit "vertically inclined" in the center. (Can you tell I know nothing about hats LOL).
So while there is a TON of conjecture and leaping from one item to the next, things do somewhat hang together as this MIGHT be the photo from her trip in 1895 to Scotland!
Long story short, I am wondering if anyone knows if the people's attire seems "typically Scottish" in any and if you have a sense of the timeframe of the picture? Ideas welcome for how to track down the Scottish side of the family, who were apparently called Wathieu in Scotland. I've done no research work in Scotland, with most of my focus on County Tyrone (Venables near Clogher) and County Leitrim (Knotts).
Thanks for any ideas or input,
Dave
PS: Should anyone be interested, I'm happy to send the diary to you offline.
Contradicting myself …. This website shows a few groups around haystacks (different style, some in Scotland) but a few of the ladies have hats similar to those in your photo. (near the top, then scroll down almost to the end).
https://thatchinginfo.com/thatching-ricks-stacks-in-britain/
I’ll drop out now, and leave it to other sleuths.
James
From: James Huey via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2024 12:21 AM
To: Dave Vanable dave@dawnwalk.com; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: James Huey james@jameshuey.com
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: Old photo - seeking input - possibly Scotland?
Another line to follow might be the style of the haystack. Was that type of stacking used in Scotland?
Someone with Scottish farming heritage may know.
The only similar haystack photos I could find doing a bit of googling were in Eastern Europe, but Scotland may well have had similar.
I am certainly not a vintage fashion expert but the type of hats suggests (to me) something more Eastern European than Scottish.
But I could be totally wrong!
I’m just guessing.
James
From: Dave Vanable via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.commailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com>
Sent: Monday, 26 August 2024 10:48 AM
To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.commailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com>
Cc: Dave Vanable <dave@dawnwalk.commailto:dave@dawnwalk.com>
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Old photo - seeking input - possibly Scotland?
Hello listers!
Attached is a photo that was "hiding" in a bin with some old family photos that I was scanning today... reportedly Carrie Butterfield Wathey (my dad's grandmother, on his mom's side) is in this picture, and the woman in the upper right certainly looks like other pictures that I have of her from the time. Carrie was my born in Providence RI in 1873 to John Campbell Wathey (Irish) and Caroline Hanley from Scotland.
In 1895 (at age 21) Carrie went on a two-month trip to Scotland via "The City of Rome" (Inman line) to spend time with aunts, uncles, and cousins to convalesce from malaria -- during which time she wrote a delightful diary (14 pages typewritten, transcribed by my grandma - Carrie's daughter - and typed up at some point by my dad's sister).
While mostly it seems there were visits and tea parties, Carrie mentions going from Glasgow (where her cousins whom she was visiting lived) to Eaglesham and to Cathcart (to visit family and see where Mary Queen of Scots ruled), and then Milngavie to have a picnic and see the waterworks... this Milngavie jaunt even mentions 10 young ladies together having fun and meeting a couple of young men who took our photo... Note that the attached picture has 10 women, one man, plus a photographer. The image looks unusual to me because of the hats worn by the women, very simple in style and a bit "vertically inclined" in the center. (Can you tell I know nothing about hats LOL).
So while there is a TON of conjecture and leaping from one item to the next, things do somewhat hang together as this MIGHT be the photo from her trip in 1895 to Scotland!
Long story short, I am wondering if anyone knows if the people's attire seems "typically Scottish" in any and if you have a sense of the timeframe of the picture? Ideas welcome for how to track down the Scottish side of the family, who were apparently called Wathieu in Scotland. I've done no research work in Scotland, with most of my focus on County Tyrone (Venables near Clogher) and County Leitrim (Knotts).
Thanks for any ideas or input,
Dave
PS: Should anyone be interested, I'm happy to send the diary to you offline.
A fascinating read thanks James. I wonder how they cut the slice when the cereal was needed? Did they have to rethatch the end? Who knows…
Dorothy in NZ
PS I’m not aware of thatching being used on farms in New Zealand - there being so much bush- covered land, perhaps there werent enough accessible reeds.
Sent from my iPhone
On 27 Aug 2024, at 2:45 AM, James Huey via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
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div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }Contradicting myself …. This website shows a few groups around haystacks (different style, some in Scotland) but a few of the ladies have hats similar to those in your photo. (near the top, then scroll down almost to the end).https://thatchinginfo.com/thatching-ricks-stacks-in-britain/
I’ll drop out now, and leave it to other sleuths.
James
From: James Huey via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2024 12:21 AM
To: Dave Vanable <dave@dawnwalk.com>; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com>
Cc: James Huey <james@jameshuey.com>
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: Old photo - seeking input - possibly Scotland?Another line to follow might be the style of the haystack. Was that type of stacking used in Scotland?
Someone with Scottish farming heritage may know.
The only similar haystack photos I could find doing a bit of googling were in Eastern Europe, but Scotland may well have had similar.
I am certainly not a vintage fashion expert but the type of hats suggests (to me) something more Eastern European than Scottish.
But I could be totally wrong!
I’m just guessing.
James
From: Dave Vanable via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com>
Sent: Monday, 26 August 2024 10:48 AM
To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com>
Cc: Dave Vanable <dave@dawnwalk.com>
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Old photo - seeking input - possibly Scotland?Hello listers!
Attached is a photo that was "hiding" in a bin with some old family photos that I was scanning today... reportedly Carrie Butterfield Wathey (my dad's grandmother, on his mom's side) is in this picture, and the woman in the upper right certainly looks like other pictures that I have of her from the time. Carrie was my born in Providence RI in 1873 to John Campbell Wathey (Irish) and Caroline Hanley from Scotland.
In 1895 (at age 21) Carrie went on a two-month trip to Scotland via "The City of Rome" (Inman line) to spend time with aunts, uncles, and cousins to convalesce from malaria -- during which time she wrote a delightful diary (14 pages typewritten, transcribed by my grandma - Carrie's daughter - and typed up at some point by my dad's sister).
While mostly it seems there were visits and tea parties, Carrie mentions going from Glasgow (where her cousins whom she was visiting lived) to Eaglesham and to Cathcart (to visit family and see where Mary Queen of Scots ruled), and then Milngavie to have a picnic and see the waterworks... this Milngavie jaunt even mentions 10 young ladies together having fun and meeting a couple of young men who took our photo... Note that the attached picture has 10 women, one man, plus a photographer. The image looks unusual to me because of the hats worn by the women, very simple in style and a bit "vertically inclined" in the center. (Can you tell I know nothing about hats LOL).
So while there is a TON of conjecture and leaping from one item to the next, things do somewhat hang together as this MIGHT be the photo from her trip in 1895 to Scotland!
Long story short, I am wondering if anyone knows if the people's attire seems "typically Scottish" in any and if you have a sense of the timeframe of the picture? Ideas welcome for how to track down the Scottish side of the family, who were apparently called Wathieu in Scotland. I've done no research work in Scotland, with most of my focus on County Tyrone (Venables near Clogher) and County Leitrim (Knotts).
Thanks for any ideas or input,
Dave
PS: Should anyone be interested, I'm happy to send the diary to you offline.
Send a Message to the List - cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
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Hi Dave,
Not just conjecture. The facts taken together build up a case for this
being the photo taken of Carrie's visit to Milngavie:
-
It appears to be Carrie in the photo and she is the right age for it to
have been taken in 1895 -
The diary description of the group fits the people in the photo. Three
of the women look alike enough to be closely related to each other (bottom
left, bottom right and top second from left). The woman next to Carrie in
the cape and the one second left bottom row also look like each other. -
The landscape is consistent with the area around the reservoir in a
google search. -
The style of haystack is consistent with Scottish stacks of the era in
the site found by James
https://thatchinginfo.com/thatching-ricks-stacks-in-britain/ -
The clothing is spot on for the 1890s - see
https://fashionhistory.fitnyc.edu/1890-1899/ Boater hats and ties for
women were fashionable attire for a day in the country.
What time of year was Carrie's visit? They look to be warmly dressed but
not for midwinter and the ground is dry enough to sit on. Is hay made
midsummer in Scotland - maybe July/August?
Scotlands People has wild card/phonetic matching/fuzzy logic searching so
you will be able to play around with the surname search.
If the diary gives the names of people in the families she visited you
can sort census search results by the reference number and registration
district. You search for one known person in a household, note the
reference/RD number. Then search the surname only and sort by the reference
number. This will bring up all the people of that name in the house. This
works best if you have 2 known people to search against.
You may have guessed I love deciphering old photos. Thanks for posting.
Regards,
Heather
On Mon, Aug 26, 2024 at 12:47 PM Dave Vanable via CoTyroneList <
cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
Hello listers!
Attached is a photo that was "hiding" in a bin with some old family photos
that I was scanning today... reportedly Carrie Butterfield Wathey (my dad's
grandmother, on his mom's side) is in this picture, and the woman in the
upper right certainly looks like other pictures that I have of her from the
time. Carrie was my born in Providence RI in 1873 to John Campbell Wathey
(Irish) and Caroline Hanley from Scotland.
In 1895 (at age 21) Carrie went on a two-month trip to Scotland via "The
City of Rome" (Inman line) to spend time with aunts, uncles, and cousins to
convalesce from malaria -- during which time she wrote a delightful diary
(14 pages typewritten, transcribed by my grandma - Carrie's daughter - and
typed up at some point by my dad's sister).
While mostly it seems there were visits and tea parties, Carrie mentions
going from Glasgow (where her cousins whom she was visiting lived) to
Eaglesham and to Cathcart (to visit family and see where Mary Queen of
Scots ruled), and then Milngavie to have a picnic and see the waterworks...
this Milngavie jaunt even mentions 10 young ladies together having fun and
meeting a couple of young men who took our photo... Note that the
attached picture has 10 women, one man, plus a photographer. The image
looks unusual to me because of the hats worn by the women, very simple in
style and a bit "vertically inclined" in the center. (Can you tell I know
nothing about hats LOL).
So while there is a TON of conjecture and leaping from one item to the
next, things do somewhat hang together as this MIGHT be the photo from her
trip in 1895 to Scotland!
Long story short, I am wondering if anyone knows if the people's attire
seems "typically Scottish" in any and if you have a sense of the timeframe
of the picture? Ideas welcome for how to track down the Scottish side of
the family, who were apparently called Wathieu in Scotland. I've done no
research work in Scotland, with most of my focus on County Tyrone (Venables
near Clogher) and County Leitrim (Knotts).
Thanks for any ideas or input,
Dave
PS: Should anyone be interested, I'm happy to send the diary to you
offline.
Send a Message to the List - cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
List Archive -
https://list.cotyroneireland.com/empathy/list/cotyronelist.list.cotyroneireland.com
Join the list by sending an email to -
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Greetings,
Jayne Shrimpton is an expert in old costumes and can often date photos
from the clothes worn. She has a regular column in "Irish Lives
Remembered" and can be contacted through them:
editor@irishlivesremembered.ie or by snail mail to the Editor (Patrick
Roycroft) at:
Eneclann
5 Whitefriars
Dublin 2
Ireland
The magazine is: FREE to view at irishlivesremembered.com
Jayne helped me date an old photo of ancestors in Belfast through the
photo studio not far from where they lived.
Gordon
On 26/08/2024 4:51 pm, Chris Owen via CoTyroneList wrote:
Hi Dave
An interesting snapshot of people and of history!
I’m no fashion expert but those clothes remind me of the era of the
suffragettes. I THINK that was mainly the earliest years of the 20th
Century. But I’m sure someone more knowledgable will be able to
advise on the timing of that particularly ghastly era for the women of
England. Meanwhile here in Australia women had already been granted
the vote, but shamefully not the First Nations people! But I digress!
So I’m wondering if this might have been just a bit later than 1895
that you thought. I don’t know if this style was around before the
turn of the century but I’d have put it as more 20thC than late 19thC.
So hopefully someone will know. But my instant reaction when I saw
the photo was to remember suffragettes dressed like that.
Good luck with finding out
Regards Chris Owen nee McCormack from Tyrone (and heading to Ireland
this December)
On 26 Aug 2024, at 14:31, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList
cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
Dave,
Can’t help with the clothing at all. My knowledge is zero, though I
can’t help thinking that by 1895 people across the whole of the UK
and Ireland probably wore pretty similar styles.
If you go to the Scotlandspeople site (pay to view) you can search
the Scottish censuses (as well as a variety of other Scottish
records). Searching the 1901 census, I don’t see any Wathieu families
at all. I see just 3 Wathew families in the Glasgow area. 1 in St
Rollox registration area (6 people), a second in Partick (2 people)
and a third in Dennistoun (5 people). The indexes will give you their
names and ages. If you want to see the full census return you need to
pay. It’s about £1.60 (sterling) per page.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-our-records
If any of the names look like your family, you can use the same site
to search earlier censuses, back to 1841 as well as for birth, death
& marriage certificates for them. You can also search the 1911 & 1921
censuses.
Birth, death & marriage registration started in Scotland in 1855.
Prior to that you need to use church baptism records, same as
Ireland. Mainstream denominationsbaptism & marriage recordsie
Presbyterian and Catholic are on the same website.
Save for the years 1856 -1860, Scottish birth certificates record
where and when the parents married. Their marriage certificates also
record both parents details (as opposed to Irish & English
certificates which only have the fathers names and occupations) and
also whether they were alive or dead on that date.
Scottish research is a lot easier than Irish!
Cathcart today is very much part of Glasgow. It’s a southern suburb.
Eaglesham (pronounced Eagle-sham) is a little further on the southern
edge of the city. Perhaps 10 miles from the city centre. Milngavie
(pronounced Mill-guy)is on the northern edge of the city perhaps 7
miles from the city centre. Easily accessible by train (then and
now). So none of the 3 places Carrie visited were very far out of town.
Here’s a link to the Milngavie reservoir they visited. Still very
much in existence today. (I remember it as a child). We always knew
it as Mugdock reservoir.
Milngavie Reservoir - Scottish Water
https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/In-Your-Area/Visiting-our-Reservoirs/Sites/Milngavie-Reservoir
Milngavie Reservoir - Scottish Water
https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/In-Your-Area/Visiting-our-Reservoirs/Sites/Milngavie-Reservoir
Elwyn
On Monday 26 August 2024 at 01:47:56 BST, Dave Vanable via
CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
Hello listers!
Attached is a photo that was "hiding" in a bin with some old family
photos that I was scanning today... reportedly Carrie Butterfield
Wathey (my dad's grandmother, on his mom's side) is in this picture,
and the woman in the upper right certainly looks like other pictures
that I have of her from the time. Carrie was my born in Providence RI
in 1873 to John Campbell Wathey (Irish) and Caroline Hanley from
Scotland.
In 1895 (at age 21) Carrie went on a two-month trip to Scotland via
"The City of Rome" (Inman line) to spend time with aunts, uncles, and
cousins to convalesce from malaria -- during which time she wrote a
delightful diary (14 pages typewritten, transcribed by my grandma -
Carrie's daughter - and typed up at some point by my dad's sister).
While mostly it seems there were visits and tea parties, Carrie
mentions going from Glasgow (where her cousins whom she was visiting
lived) to Eaglesham and to Cathcart (to visit family and see where
Mary Queen of Scots ruled), and then Milngavie to have a picnic and
see the waterworks... this Milngavie jaunt even mentions 10 young
ladies together having fun and meeting a couple of young men who took
our photo... Note that the attached picture has 10 women, one man,
plus a photographer. The image looks unusual to me because of the
hats worn by the women, very simple in style and a bit "vertically
inclined" in the center. (Can you tell I know nothing about hats LOL).
So while there is a TON of conjecture and leaping from one item to
the next, things do somewhat hang together as this MIGHT be the photo
from her trip in 1895 to Scotland!
Long story short, I am wondering if anyone knows if the people's
attire seems "typically Scottish" in any and if you have a sense of
the timeframe of the picture? Ideas welcome for how to track down the
Scottish side of the family, who were apparently called Wathieu in
Scotland. I've done no research work in Scotland, with most of my
focus on County Tyrone (Venables near Clogher) and County Leitrim
(Knotts).
Thanks for any ideas or input,
Dave
PS: Should anyone be interested, I'm happy to send the diary to you
offline.
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