Thank you Elwyn again for your usual detailed response ... this helps alot! Rick SmollPH: (512) 619-3860  -----Original Message----- From: elwyn soutter <elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com> To: Rick Smoll <rsmoll999(a)aim.com>; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <cotyronelist(a)list.cotyroneireland.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 28, 2020 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Fwd: Passing on of Tenancies - trying to clear up some confusion Rick, According to Philip Robinson’s “The Plantation of Ulster” a ballyboe was: “A small Irish land division which before the planation represented the territory within which several families worked the land. Although the real area of the ballyboe varied greatly with the quality of the land, it was assumed by the plantation surveyors to contain 60 acres of profitable land in most areas of north west Ulster. Many modern townlands have evolved from these ballyboes.” The plantation acre was a “Unit of areal measurement adopted for plantation purposes in the granting of land, in subsequent plantation surveys, and in the Civil Survey of 1654-56. The basis of the plantation acre was an assumption that the ballyboe contained 60 acres of profitable land. Although the actual areas of ballyboes varied greatly, and were on average 6 times larger when measured in statute acres, plantation acres were a useful comparative assessment of land potential.” I am not sure I can specifically explain what the situation was in Loughterush but the sum of what I think was happening is that the measurements were often estimates and guesstimates, bog and other land that could not be used to grow crops or feed cattle was excluded, and statute acres were different to Plantation acres. (And Cunningham acres are used in some records too eg some of the tithes). So it all adds a little confusion. What are shown as Li a & d are probably Li s & d. Libra for pounds. S for shillings and d for a penny  (abbreviation d for denarius – which was a roman coin). 12 pence in a shilling, 20 shillings in a pound. They were phased out in 1971 when the UK and Ireland gradually went over to a decimal system.   Elwyn On Fri, 28 Aug 2020 at 14:00, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <cotyronelist(a)list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote: Attached are two pages of the Down Survey for Kilskeery Parish (1654) 1. I think I understand that a BallyBoe (or Balli bo) is the Gaelic term for townland that was used in Ulster; the difference being that it was originally used more as a sort of subjective unit of land measurement (as opposed to a specific place) ... generally a piece of agricultural land large enough to support a family, which would vary according to the quality of the land. On the survey we can see that multiple townlands seem to be adding up to one Ballyboe ... I wonder if any of you could explain this.  2. Also, there is an acreage listed to the right which would seem to be the total for the townlands listed ... obviously there would be more acreage than what we see listed for the combination of three townlands. For example, my ancestors' farm in Loughterush (spelled Laghterish on this form) is about 40 acres (I believe there is about 270 acres total in Loughterush), and the form seems to list sixty five acres total for Loughterush, Lisnahanna, and Derryvokenan combined! ... could it be that they were listing only what they considered to be land under cultivation at the time? 3. In the header on the first page, bottom sentence:     The Crowne rents thereof being six shill (shillings) & eight pence p (per) Balliboe  amounts to li. 4:a. 06: d. 8.    And then in the last column there is the heading:         Value as in Ano 1640 with values listed below:         Li.    a.    d. What were the Crowne rents?  Was that actually more like the tax that was owed to the Crown for Audley's portion? What do the value headings mean? Thanks for any and all help!   Rick Smoll   -----Original Message----- From: Rick Smoll <rsmoll999(a)aim.com> To: cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>; petermckitt(a)gmail.com <petermckitt(a)gmail.com> Cc: marionshephard(a)btinternet.com <marionshephard(a)btinternet.com>; cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com> Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 9:00 am Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies Question to anyone … what are the best methods to locate rent books online (if even possible). I know the exact location of the property, the identities of the named occupying ancestors at the time of tythe applotment and Griffith's Valuation, as well as the land owners. Thanks!   Rick Smoll   -----Original Message----- From: Marion via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com> To: Peter McKittrick <petermckitt(a)gmail.com> Cc: Marion <marionshephard(a)btinternet.com>; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com> Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 8:43 am Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies Peter I have just been studying the lease from Peacockbank (from 1835) and found a similar clause to the one you mentioned. It states that written permission is required from the Marquis of Abercorn, or his heirs, if the tenant wishes to dispose of the premises and also seems to indicate that the buyer  can only be a single person, (I assume this was to prevent the property being split up). I will try and attach a copy of the relevant section as it is full of legal terms!  I must assume that William Boak had permission to sell the farm as an advert appeared in the Derry Journal in 1894 with details about the sale. I have a copy of a page from the rent book for 1880/90s and inserted inside is a letter, dated 1897, from a solicitor for William McCay informing the estate of his purchase which was completed in April 1895, but there is no change in the details of rent paid or mention of the new tenant in the book itself. I assume William must have been paying rent from 1895 so I am unsure why the solicitors letter was only sent in 1897 !?! Hope this is of interest. Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Peter McKittrick Sent: 01 July 2020 02:59 To: Marion Cc: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List; elwyn soutter Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies Marion wondered about what part the landlord may have had in the transactions described. One would expect that would depend on the lease agreement. As mentioned before, in the case I looked at, there was a clause in the lease against assigning, mortgaging, underleasing or otherwise disposing of the interest, except by will. So if the that property was to be sold outright, the landlord would have to grant a waiver. Re the farm in Peacockbank, one would assume the Abercorn Esate did not insert such a clause in its lease agreements. Peter McKittrick On 30 Jun 2020, at 10:24 pm, Marion <marionshephard(a)btinternet.com> wrote: I have been reading with interest all the correspondence related to leases. The vagaries of how they worked has long confused me. In the early 19th century my own ancestors , the McCays, were very lowly tenant farmers in Rabstown, Urney on land which I believe belonged to the church. There were two McCays noted in the Tithe applotment books. Archibald who held a lease as an individual and Thomas, who shared one with a group of others. The details are limited but as there were two neighbouring farms tenanted by McCays in the Griffiths valuation I assume they were inherited from Archibald and Thomas. I also assume these two were related, possibly brothers. Archibald doesn’t seem to have had sons to pass on his farm to but Thomas had 2 sons William, the eldest, and Charles. The Griffiths valuation shows them with an individual farm each in Rabstown and by studying various maps I have concluded that William had Archibald’s farm while Charles had one based on where the shared lease of his father had been.  Charles was unmarried and on his death, his farm passed to William’s son, another William, according to the Valuation Revision books. By 1890 William Senior felt the need to make a will, leaving all to his son but also providing well for his unmarried daughter. He died a few years later leaving his son as the tenant of two farms in Rabstown. I have no idea what part the landlord had in any of this.  William Junior then proceeded to buy the tenancy of a much bigger and better farm in neighbouring Peacockbank in 1895. The purchase of this farm confused me a little as the the asking price of £1000 seemed huge when it didn’t include the freehold. Once the sale was completed William’s solicitor informed the Abercorn estate that they had a new tenant and that seems to have been accepted. About 10 years later he purchased the freehold under LAP. About the same time he acquired another farm tenancy in Rabstown, from the widow of his cousin Alexander Wauchob, and installed his nephew, John Patrick, the eldest son of his deceased sister. There is a reference to this in the index of the registry of deeds and I assume he must have purchased this.  William married late in life and was childless and his will is a mine of information. By this time he owned the freehold of one farm and the leases of three others but interestingly he doesn’t differentiate between them. They are all his farms, but their history is revealed in that he refers to the three farms in Rabstown as ‘ my uncle’s farm’, ‘my father’s farm’ and ‘Wauchob’s farm’. Although he provided for his wife, the farms were to be kept in the family. Wauchob’s farm went to his nephew John Patrick, and there were many small bequests to other members of his family from the female lines – McCays, Wauchobs and Patricks , everything else passed to his unmarried sister Mary Ann and then to her son John McCay – the only family member retaining that name, which I think is significant. My purpose here I suppose is to stress the importance of the family in all these transactions. In the early days they seemed to be very informal assumptions that things continued as before with the families themselves sorting out the details of what was to happen. With the introduction of wills in the family this legalised the process but everything seems to have been decided already. I would welcome any comments particularly about the assumptions and conclusions I have come to. Regards  Marion Shephard   Sent from Mail for Windows 10   From: Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList Sent: 30 June 2020 04:45 To: elwyn soutter Cc: Peter McKittrick; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies   Thanks, re LAP, was familiar with the term in fee.   According to Wikipedia there were early land purchase schemes involving loans but none as attractive as those under the Wyndham Act.   Peter   > On 30 Jun 2020, at 12:43 pm, elwyn soutter <elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com> wrote: >  > Peter, >  > LAP stands for “Land Act Purchase”. As far as I am aware, it was introduced with the 1903 Land Act, often known as Wyndham’s Land Act, so you shouldn’t see it in use before that year.  It provided the final piece of legislation to make land ownership more reasonable in Ireland, especially for farmers. It provided Government backed mortgages to finance the purchase of the land and freehold, and there was also some sort of mechanism for bridging the gap where a land owner and farmer couldn’t agree the price. >   > In the Valuation Revision books these purchases are marked with the letters “L.A.P.” in purple ink, plus the relevant year is normally written in the right hand column. The landlord’s name is deleted and the words “In fee” inserted. In fee means you own the freehold. >   > Quoting from the Encyclopedia Britannica: >   > “At the close of the century, the Conservatives initiated a policy designed to “kill Home Rule by kindness” by introducing constructive reforms in Ireland. Their most important achievement was the Land Purchase Act <https://www.britannica.com/topic/Wyndham-Land-Purchase-Act> of 1903, which initiated the greatest social revolution in Ireland since the 17th century. By providing generous inducements to landlords to sell their estates, the act effected by government mediation the transfer of landownership to the occupying tenants”. >   > Source: > https://www.britannica.com/place/Ireland/The-rise-of-Fenianism#ref316060<https://www.britannica.com/place/Ireland/The-rise-of-Fenianism#ref316060> >   >   > As I understand it, the widespread inability to buy their land was something that galled many Irish farmers. (Landowners wanted the income rather than the capital so they mostly didn’t want to sell, though you do see the odd sale in the records). But for many farmers you got say a 30 year lease and spent half your life improving the farm, only for the land owner to then put the rent up because the place was now worth more, thanks mostly to your efforts. And if you didn’t accept the increase, you could be required to leave.  No wonder many farmers went off to live in a country where land was available for outright purchase (often with grants). As the 1800s progressed various piecemeal legislative changes were made, making it slightly harder for landowners to hike up rents unreasonably. I don’t know the precise details but latterly, in general, if a farmer had a longer lease and had been paying his rent and abiding by the terms of the lease he had an almost guaranteed right to renew, and there were statutory limitations on increasing the rent. So it was a sort of security of tenure. Not nearly as good as freehold, but certainly much more secure than the arrangements in the 1600s and 1700s when it was fairly easy to evict tenants at the end of their lease, and/or hike the rent up. >   >   >   > Elwyn >  > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 01:22, Peter McKittrick <petermckitt(a)gmail.com<mailto:petermckitt(a)gmail.com>> wrote: > Thank you, Elwyn. >  > Your explanation of “reps of” and background was very helpful. Obviously long term leases could be dealt with as any other asset, but what threw me was that I would have expected some more legal language (e.g. executor of……legal representative of…etc).   >  > So the lease I have been looking at would have been in name of and signed by Robert McKittrick and purely on an ex post basis, when the solicitors for the lessor drew up the sale prospectus for sale in 1872, they found that the lessee was deceased (1869) so they listed the Tenant as Representatives of Robert McKittrick.  In fact son John was Occupier in 1860 (Griffith) when Robert was still alive, so John would have probably occupied under a private arrangement with his father and ran the farm (probably mainly flax growing) paid the rates. Interestingly, looking more closely at the terms of the subject lease, there was a clause against assigning, mortgaging, under leasing or otherwise disposing of the interest, except by will, but  that obviously did not prevent occupation by a son. But yes, you would expect that “Reps of” could only operate under a will. >  > Another interesting feature of the lease arrangement was the existence of a reversionary lease over part of the land involving a large (probably prohibitive) rent increase for that part of the land at the expiration of the main lease. The maps are only viewable on Find My Past in black and white and the land subject to the reversionary lease is bordered in yellow so it's not possible to easily identify the part involved and its significance. >  > Later, from the Revision Books available at nidirect, John’s son Joseph inherited the lease or was at least occupier. As Elwyn states, things got better for Lessees as by a 1901 Revision Joseph held the land in fee (entry stamped L.A.P.-exact expansion of acronym yet to be found). I assume LAP indicates that Joseph took advantage of one or other of the attractive government purchase assistance schemes, probably one under which the money was lent over a long term, going by the date. Later schemes seemed to involve an outright grant. Joseph eventually sold the land to a Peter Donnelly. >  > Happy to see any further discussion! >  > Peter McKittrick >  >  >> On 29 Jun 2020, at 11:06 pm, elwyn soutter <elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com<mailto:elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com>> wrote: >>  >> Peter, >>   >> Sorry if you feel I misinterpreted your words.  (You said: “may be to avoid having to draw up a new lease until it was necessary.”)  Dodge wasn’t intended in any pejorative way, simply as being expedient. >>   >>   >> Elwyn >>  >> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 11:47, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> wrote: >> Just in case my email didn’t go to the mailing list, I’ll repeat my response to Elwyn Souter: Elwyn, at no stage did I suggest it was a “dodge” thank you.  >>  >> Peter >>  >> Sent from my iPhone >>  >> > On 29 Jun 2020, at 8:16 pm, Peter McKittrick <petermckitt(a)gmail.com<mailto:petermckitt(a)gmail.com>> wrote: >> >  >> > Elwyn, at no time did I suggest it was a “dodge” thank you. >> >  >> > Peter >> >  >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >  >> >>> On 29 Jun 2020, at 7:24 pm, elwyn soutter <elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com<mailto:elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com>> wrote: >> >>>  >> >>  >> >> Regarding “reps of” cases, it was common for there to be significant delays in winding up of some estates. That could be a combination of slow or ineffective executors or it could be because there were disputes or other legal matters which delayed things. >> >>   >> >> As a random search, I went to the PRONI wills website and looked for people who died between 1858 and 1862 but whose estates were not granted probate until between 1890 and 1900. There are 36 such cases.  So it took up to 32 years for probate to be granted in a fairly significant number of cases. And until that was done the executors had control over lease renewal etc. So any property transactions relating to those estates would have “reps of” for many many years. (It wasn’t a dodge to avoid a new lease, as Peter suggests. It was just that the owner was dead but the property had not yet been passed on formally to the person who had inherited it. So the person with temporary jurisdiction, and landlord, was the executor(s). >> >>   >> >> Here’s a William Bradley who died in 1877. Probate was finally granted in 1940.  Just a slight delay of 63 years. (The estate was valued at a whopping £25). >> >>   >> >> Bradley William of Drumard county Tyrone farmer died 26 January 1877 Administration W/A Londonderry 13 September to Enoch Bradley farmer. Effects £25. Probate: 13 September 1940. >> >>   >> >> On many of the lengthy delay cases you will find the letters “d.b.n” in the probate abstract. DBN is short for “De bonis non” a term used by the Probate Court when dealing with estates where the original executor(s) did not fulfil their obligations to the deceased, perhaps because they were overseas or even dead themselves, and no-one else took any action to resolve things. >> >>   >> >>   >> >>   >> >> Elwyn >> >>  >> >>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:25, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rick, you asked for an example of "Representatives of [Name] being listed in relation to tenancies. The example I’ve seen is when the Altmore Estate was auctioned in 1872 and the sale prospectus listed all the existing lease agreements including one over an Altmore property i.n.o. Robert McKittrick where the Tenants Names are recorded as "Representatives of Robert McKittrick". This document is available on subscription through Find My Past Landed Estates Court Rentals1850-1885. By 1860 and Griffith, Robert’s son John (don’t think he was the eldest) is in Occupation of the property and by 1869 Robert had died, but in 1872 the lease agreement with Reps of Robert McKittrick was still being relied upon. >> >>>  >> >>> Regards >> >>>  >> >>> Peter McKittrick >> >>>  >> >>> > On 28 Jun 2020, at 8:33 am, Peter McKittrick <petermckitt(a)gmail.com<mailto:petermckitt(a)gmail.com>> wrote: >> >>> >  >> >>> > Rick, good topic. The only thing I’ve noticed is that the lessee is sometimes described as “Representatives of.....“ May be to avoid having to draw up a new lease until it was absolutely necessary say when the lessor changed. >> >>> >  >> >>> > Peter >> >>> >  >> >>> > Sent from my iPhone >> >>> >  >> >>> >> On 28 Jun 2020, at 6:20 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> wrote: >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> Hello all …I've been having difficulty finding information concerning how tenancy was passed along from generation to generation on the plantation farms. What was the legal framework for inheriting the lease on the farm that the family had been occupying … in our case for at least 150 years prior to the land acts at the end of the 19th century? Hoping somebody might be able to steer me somewhere on this issue. >> >>> >> Also, any insight on how a decision was made within a family regarding which son (or daughter) would assume responsibility for the lease? >> >>> >> Thanks, as always … >> >>> >> Rick Smoll >> >>> >>  >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >> From: elwyn soutter <elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com<mailto:elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com>> >> >>> >> To: James McKane <jamckane(a)gmail.com<mailto:jamckane(a)gmail.com>> >> >>> >> Cc: Rick Smoll <rsmoll999(a)aim.com <mailto:rsmoll999(a)aim.com>>; CoTyroneIreland.com <http://cotyroneireland.com/> Mailing List <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> >> >>> >> Sent: Thu, Jun 11, 2020 8:21 pm >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633 >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> Rick, Ballyboe is from the Irish words “Baile bo”meaning “cow land.” According to Philip Robinson - “The Plantation of Ulster”,a ballyboe was “A small Irish land division which, before the plantation,represented the territory within which several families worked the land.Although the real area of the ballyboe varied greatly with the quality of theland, it was assumed by the plantation surveyors to contain 60 acres ofprofitable land in most areas of north-west Ulster. Many modern townlands haveevolved from these ballyboes.” Not all land in Ireland was requisitionedby the Crown at the time of the Plantation. At least a third remained in thehands of local Irish landlords, normally provided they agreed to be loyal tothe Crown.  An obvious example would bethe Maguires who had lands in Fermanagh. Chunks of land were declared forfeitfollowing the 1641 uprising and reallocated. Details in the Down survey: http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php<http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php> Robinson spends some time discussing theorigins of settler names in Tyrone, and to what extent Scottish undertakers hadScots tenants, and English undertakers had English tenants. The implicationbeing that they originated in their landlords respective estates. However therewas evidently a lot of mixing. For example on p122 he says:  The evidence of Scots settling outsidetheir allocated baronies of Strabane and Mountjoy is supplemented by a statementof Lord Audley’s in 1614 when he claimed that his estate of Finagh and Rarone inOmagh barony had as many Scots as English in it. Although there is considerable degree ofcontinuity between 1630 and 1666 in the distributional pattern of Britishsettlement, and indeed in the persistence of English and Scottish localities,the actual surnames on most estates did change dramatically. This turnover ofpersonnel cannot be attributed simply to the ravages of the 1641 rebellion, forcomparable changes can be observed between 1622 and 1630. A high degree oftenant mobility is a striking characteristic of plantation settlement, despitethe continuity of settlement patterns.” He goes on to discuss colonial spread. “In1622 the percentage of Scots on any Tyrone estate was closely related towhether or not the estate was Scottish owned, and only marginally related tothe physical distance from Londonderry as the natural entry point for Scottishsettlers. However by 1630 the gap between the statistical significance of thesetwo factors had narrowed, and by 1666 it was the distance from Londonderrywhich was most significant. This supports the model of colonization outlinedabove, whereby the process of direct plantation, with subsequent internalmigration operated simultaneously with that of colonial spread. Furthermore thecontention that colonial spread became relatively more important than directplantation with time is also supported.” (This continues for pages but you willhopefully get the general drift.  Manysettlers in Tyrone and particularly the Scots arrived via Londonderry and movedacross Tyrone. Some stayed put and some moved about. After 40 years colonialspread meant that a significant percentage were no longer in the place wherethey first settled). Loughterush is in the barony of Omagh East.For me, the absence of Morrisons in that part of Tyrone in the Muster Rolls (iec 1630) strongly suggests your ancestors must have there arrived afterthat.  There’s only 1 Morison in Tyronein the Muster Rolls, a Robert Morsion in Strabane barony. Perhaps your familywere connected to him and moved south to Loughterush. So colonial spread? Your question is whether Audley brought theMorisons over? I doubt he brought them over himself because he appears to haveacquired those lands from his uncle, Lord Castlehaven who was the originalUndertaker. The family were from Petersfield in Hampshire.  Morison is not a name particularly common inthat part of England so that would make me doubt they were Castlehaven tenantsin England. But I might be wrong.   Elwyn >> >>> >> On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 01:21, James McKane <jamckane(a)gmail.com<mailto:jamckane(a)gmail.com>> wrote: >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> A search of the CoTyroneIreland.com <http://cotyroneireland.com/> Tithe Applotment Index shows this entry >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> | MORRISON | Edward | Loughterush | Sloy Manor, Kilskerry 1826 >> >>> >> | >> >>> >>  >> >>> >>  >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> Jim McKane >> >>> >> Kitchener, Ontario >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:02 PM Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> wrote: >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> I located a copy of the 1654-1656 Civil Survey that covers the townland of Loughterush in Kilskeery Parish … this obviously does not list the tenants names, only the owner … but there is interesting information there that for me begs some questions that perhaps some of you could help me with. I have attached the top page with the header that describes the area and names the owner, and then the page that lists Laghterish (older spelling or misspelling of Loughterush) among the townlands in his possession. >> >>> >> Questions:1. Is there any reason to have confidence that Col. Audley Mervin  would have been the one to have brought the Morrisons over to Loughterush? 2. Were all of the lands of Ulster apportioned out in the time frame around 1610, or did it take a longer period of time (ie, could Mervin have been granted his land after 1630?) He was also listed among those who came to the aid of Londonderry during the siege by James II in 1690, so he was not likely an original grantee in 1610.3.The total acreage for the townlands of Lisnahanna, Loughterush, and Derryvokenan (?) is listed as 65 acres … there is obviously a lot more than 65 acres there (even Irish acres) ; the Morrison farm alone was about 40-50 acres … could that be referring to only the amount of acreage under cultivation? >> >>> >> Other items of interest: … I now know what a Balliboe is. >> >>> >> … Based on the note in the left column of the first page, Audley was apparently among those protestant royalists who were penalized by Cromwell with the settlement act of 1652. >> >>> >>  >> >>> >>  Rick Smoll  >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >> From: elwyn soutter <elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com<mailto:elwynsoutter(a)googlemail.com>> >> >>> >> To: CoTyroneIreland.com <http://cotyroneireland.com/> Mailing List <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> >> >>> >> Cc: rsmoll999 <rsmoll999(a)aim.com <mailto:rsmoll999(a)aim.com>> >> >>> >> Sent: Thu, May 21, 2020 9:27 pm >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633 >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> Rick, The surname, the general location and thefamily denomination all point to them being settlers who probably arrived inIreland in the 1600s. MacLysaght’s surnames of Ireland describesMorrison as  “an English name numerous inUlster.” The location ie Tyrone, is a county heavily settled by Scots &English in that period, and the family denomination (Methodist in 1901) alsopoints to them being incomers. (They would almost certainly have been Church ofIreland – ie Anglican- in earlier times, prior to Methodism’s arrival inIreland).  So in effect you have 3pointers to them being of settler origins. The Muster Rolls c 1630 show a number ofMorrisons in Ireland, and one in Tyrone, but none in the Barony of Omagh East(which includes Loughterush) so that points to a post 1630 arrival in theLoughterush area, if not in Ireland. It’s very rare to find any documentationfor the 1600s, unless you were an Undertaker or major land owner, or had landforfeit after the 1641 rebellion.  Theearliest likely records might be in the Registry of Deeds which start around1709. If the family registered a lease or other significant document, thatsometimes gives you a date. Failing that, church records may help. KilskeeryChurch of Ireland records start in 1767 so you might find them there. For somepeople the tithe applotment records in the late 1820s/early 1830s are often theearliest records to be found.   I searched the PRONI e-catalogue but see nomention there of Morrison in Loughterush other than in the tithes in 1826.There were no comprehensive records of when people first acquired land. Formost 17th century settlers, the first 150 years or so of their timein Ireland are lost in the mists of time. Elwyn >> >>> >> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 03:06, rsmoll999 via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> wrote: >> >>> >>  >> >>> >> Peter  ... thanks for responding  ... the links you sent are not working for me. I'll do some more hunting for those sites.Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S9. >> >>> >> -------- Original message --------From: Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> Date: 5/21/20  8:43 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: "CoTyroneIreland.com<http://cotyroneireland.com/> Mailing List" <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com<mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> Cc: Peter McKittrick <petermckitt(a)gmail.com <mailto:petermckitt(a)gmail.com>> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633 A past Genealogical Society of Victoria (Australia) handout indicates that Morrison appears in Scottish names in Tyrone, 1610-1633 based on muster rolls and estate maps.Sources:             Brian Orr, Plantation of Ireland and the Ulster Scots published on http://www.irishclans.com/%C2%A0<http://www.irishclans.com/> <http://www.irishclans.com/%C2%A0<http://www.irishclans.com/>>                      Gwen Rawlings-Barry, The Ulster Plantation (1605-1697) published on http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/<http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/> <http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/<http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/>> (website not found).Peter McKittrick> On 22 May 2020, at 10:23 am, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com <mailto:cotyronelist(a)cotyroneireland.com>> wrote:> > Rick, My guess is that they could have been part of the plantation of Ulster in the 17thC. I suspect(based on my surname) that my ancestors may have been part of that event too but have not been able to find any records of who arrived from where and when. Any help (thanks Len S. for your earlier help) would be appreciated. Gordon> > On 22/05/2020 3:14 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList wrote:>> My Morrison ancestors occupied a farm in the Loughterush townland (Kilskeery Parish) from at least the mid 1700s until 1970 when the last Morrison on the farm passed away (he was a bachelor), and the farm was sold at public auction. The earliest ancestor I have found records for was Edward Morrison, and the earliest reference to Loughterush was with the birth of a daughter of his in 1781.>> My question is: Is there a way to find out when the Morrisons first came to occupy the farm in Loughterush?>> Thank you for any help on this.>> >>   Rick Smoll>> _______________________________________________>> CoTyroneList Mailing List>> Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList(a)cotyroneireland.com<mailto:CoTyroneList(a)cotyroneireland.com>>> Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com<http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com>>> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY%C2%A0<https://goo.gl/mQCKrY>> > -- > _________________________________> Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, South Australia.> Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon<http://www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon>        Skype id: neredon> 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