Marion,

I cannot speak for the Clady Bridge crossing but my family lived in Fermanagh and routinely crossed the border into Monaghan and elsewhere all through the 1920s & 1930s and beyond. People went back and forth after 1921, just as they did before. You would have had no difficulty attending church on the other side of the border, and I am not sure there was ever a regular Customs presence on Sundays anyway.

There were Customs posts on the major “approved” crossing roads but these were generally only staffed from 8.00am to 6.00pm. There were Customs Officers on both sides of the border, so there was an Irish Customs control as well as a British one. Folk were always a little anxious that they’d have something seized, or would have to pay duty. (During WW2 my mother in law used to smuggle the odd half pound of butter from Monaghan to Fermanagh, usually concealed in her underwear. She would travel by bus and was always anxious about being challenged, but never was).

As far as I am aware, provided you used an approved crossing point, there were no restrictions on vehicles or any other form of wheeled transport, unless you were importing a vehicle permanently or were carrying commercial goods.  The usual excise duties would apply then. Passports weren’t required. There was no passport control, only Customs.

Most of the time, after 6.00pm there was no-one on the border at all, and I don’t think there was much coverage on Sundays. Plus there were several hundred minor “unapproved” roads. There were no permanent controls on them. They were supposedly only to be used by vehicles requiring local access to land, eg farmers, and by persons on foot. In practice they were fairly widely used to cross the border by car. There were mobile Customs patrols that occasionally checked them but from what I heard they were few and far between. You could theoretically have your car seized if you used an unapproved crossing but you normally got it back if you paid a small penalty.

Commercial carriers did pay some duty when bringing goods across the border (and they could often reclaim tax, if exporting) but otherwise there wasn’t really a vigorous control. Most people continued to cross fairly easily as they did before partition. Just you needed to allow a little time in case you were stopped. 

My feeling is that a horse drawn carriage in the 1920s would be unlikely to have faced any restrictions in crossing. (I have never heard of any).  As international border crossings go it was always very “light touch.” There were no fences or any other markers along the border, save at the approved crossing points. 

The last Customs controls on the border were abolished on 1.1.1993.

 
Elwyn

On Tuesday, 28 June 2022, 17:33:09 BST, marionshephard via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:  

Hello allI am wondering if there is anyone who has some local knowledge about the border between Tyrone and Donegal at Clady. My family were split in two by the border in 1921, although the Donegal members seemed to have managed to continue attending their church in Tyrone ( Urney Presbyterian) and my father born in Tyrone seems to have known his mother's family home in Donegal. Their route across the border was via Clady Bridge over the river Finn. I have been reading about the establishment of customs posts and how it affected people living along the border. Does anyone know if clady Bridge was an approved crossing or not, and how easy was it to move between the two counties there? I know movement on foot was allowed and restrictions were introduced on motor vehicles but what about horse drawn carriages?I would be grateful for any information or thoughts that anyone has.Regards Marion Shephard 

Sent from my Galaxy

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Elwyn,

What an interesting and comprehensive explanation you have provided.

Apart from the general history, I don’t have a direct interest in the subject matter, but it’s great to read of these things – and have them so well explained.

One of the reasons this group is magic, is the willingness of people like you to provide these explanations.

Thank you.

James  (with roots in Cookstown)

From: Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 3:22 AM
To: marionshephard via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: Elwyn Soutter elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: The border after 1921

Marion,

I cannot speak for the Clady Bridge crossing but my family lived in Fermanagh and routinely crossed the border into Monaghan and elsewhere all through the 1920s & 1930s and beyond. People went back and forth after 1921, just as they did before. You would have had no difficulty attending church on the other side of the border, and I am not sure there was ever a regular Customs presence on Sundays anyway.

There were Customs posts on the major “approved” crossing roads but these were generally only staffed from 8.00am to 6.00pm. There were Customs Officers on both sides of the border, so there was an Irish Customs control as well as a British one. Folk were always a little anxious that they’d have something seized, or would have to pay duty. (During WW2 my mother in law used to smuggle the odd half pound of butter from Monaghan to Fermanagh, usually concealed in her underwear. She would travel by bus and was always anxious about being challenged, but never was).

As far as I am aware, provided you used an approved crossing point, there were no restrictions on vehicles or any other form of wheeled transport, unless you were importing a vehicle permanently or were carrying commercial goods.  The usual excise duties would apply then. Passports weren’t required. There was no passport control, only Customs.

Most of the time, after 6.00pm there was no-one on the border at all, and I don’t think there was much coverage on Sundays. Plus there were several hundred minor “unapproved” roads. There were no permanent controls on them. They were supposedly only to be used by vehicles requiring local access to land, eg farmers, and by persons on foot. In practice they were fairly widely used to cross the border by car. There were mobile Customs patrols that occasionally checked them but from what I heard they were few and far between. You could theoretically have your car seized if you used an unapproved crossing but you normally got it back if you paid a small penalty.

Commercial carriers did pay some duty when bringing goods across the border (and they could often reclaim tax, if exporting) but otherwise there wasn’t really a vigorous control. Most people continued to cross fairly easily as they did before partition. Just you needed to allow a little time in case you were stopped.

My feeling is that a horse drawn carriage in the 1920s would be unlikely to have faced any restrictions in crossing. (I have never heard of any).  As international border crossings go it was always very “light touch.” There were no fences or any other markers along the border, save at the approved crossing points.

The last Customs controls on the border were abolished on 1.1.1993.

Elwyn

On Tuesday, 28 June 2022, 17:33:09 BST, marionshephard via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.commailto:cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:

Hello all
I am wondering if there is anyone who has some local knowledge about the border between Tyrone and Donegal at Clady. My family were split in two by the border in 1921, although the Donegal members seemed to have managed to continue attending their church in Tyrone ( Urney Presbyterian) and my father born in Tyrone seems to have known his mother's family home in Donegal. Their route across the border was via Clady Bridge over the river Finn. I have been reading about the establishment of customs posts and how it affected people living along the border. Does anyone know if clady Bridge was an approved crossing or not, and how easy was it to move between the two counties there? I know movement on foot was allowed and restrictions were introduced on motor vehicles but what about horse drawn carriages?
I would be grateful for any information or thoughts that anyone has.
Regards Marion Shephard

Sent from my Galaxy

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Many thanks Elwyn. As always you provide a wealth of information which gives me a much clearer picture. I  was particularly interested in the 1920s and 30s as all my relatives who would remember them have long gone. I have been reading something called ' the Irish borderlands Project' carried out by St Mary's University,  London.  It was interesting but from what I did hear from my family it didn't always fit with what I knew. So thankyou for explaining things so clearly for me.Regards MarionSent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------From: Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com Date: 28/06/2022  18:22  (GMT+00:00) To: marionshephard via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com Cc: Elwyn Soutter elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: The border after 1921
Marion,I cannot speak for the Clady Bridge crossing but my family lived in Fermanagh and routinely crossed the border into Monaghan and elsewhere all through the 1920s & 1930s and beyond. People went back and forth after 1921, just as they did before. You would have had no difficulty attending church on the other side of the border, and I am not sure there was ever a regular Customs presence on Sundays anyway. There were Customs posts on the major “approved” crossing roads but these were generally only staffed from 8.00am to 6.00pm. There were Customs Officers on both sides of the border, so there was an Irish Customs control as well as a British one. Folk were always a little anxious that they’d have something seized, or would have to pay duty. (During WW2 my mother in law used to smuggle the odd half pound of butter from Monaghan to Fermanagh, usually concealed in her underwear. She would travel by bus and was always anxious about being challenged, but never was). As far as I am aware, provided you used an approved crossing point, there were no restrictions on vehicles or any other form of wheeled transport, unless you were importing a vehicle permanently or were carrying commercial goods.  The usual excise duties would apply then. Passports weren’t required. There was no passport control, only Customs. Most of the time, after 6.00pm there was no-one on the border at all, and I don’t think there was much coverage on Sundays. Plus there were several hundred minor “unapproved” roads. There were no permanent controls on them. They were supposedly only to be used by vehicles requiring local access to land, eg farmers, and by persons on foot. In practice they were fairly widely used to cross the border by car. There were mobile Customs patrols that occasionally checked them but from what I heard they were few and far between. You could theoretically have your car seized if you used an unapproved crossing but you normally got it back if you paid a small penalty. Commercial carriers did pay some duty when bringing goods across the border (and they could often reclaim tax, if exporting) but otherwise there wasn’t really a vigorous control. Most people continued to cross fairly easily as they did before partition. Just you needed to allow a little time in case you were stopped.  My feeling is that a horse drawn carriage in the 1920s would be unlikely to have faced any restrictions in crossing. (I have never heard of any).  As international border crossings go it was always very “light touch.” There were no fences or any other markers along the border, save at the approved crossing points.  The last Customs controls on the border were abolished on 1.1.1993.  Elwyn

                On Tuesday, 28 June 2022, 17:33:09 BST, marionshephard via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
            
            
            
            Hello allI am wondering if there is anyone who has some local knowledge about the border between Tyrone and Donegal at Clady. My family were split in two by the border in 1921, although the Donegal members seemed to have managed to continue attending their church in Tyrone ( Urney Presbyterian) and my father born in Tyrone seems to have known his mother's family home in Donegal. Their route across the border was via Clady Bridge over the river Finn. I have been reading about the establishment of customs posts and how it affected people living along the border. Does anyone know if clady Bridge was an approved crossing or not, and how easy was it to move between the two counties there? I know movement on foot was allowed and restrictions were introduced on motor vehicles but what about horse drawn carriages?I would be grateful for any information or thoughts that anyone has.Regards Marion Shephard Sent from my Galaxy

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Hi BoydThanks so much for the local facts about Clady. I know from the past that I can rely on your mine of information. I have driven over the bridge many times when visiting family but never stopped to look at it. In the early days after partition the family obviously went back and forth quite easily although in later years they seem to have settled on one side or the other without much contact. This would probably have happened anyway as families grow apart and its my interest in genealogy that has reminded them of these links.I will have listen to Seamus O' Rourke and look forward to having a laugh !Thanks again MarionSent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------From: Boyd Gray via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com Date: 29/06/2022  00:09  (GMT+00:00) To: Elwyn Soutter elwynsoutter@yahoo.co.uk, "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com Cc: Boyd Gray boydgray26@gmail.com Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: The border after 1921 Hi Marion,I live within spitting distance of the bridge at Clady.  It is indeed an approved crossing.I would not like to be definitive about the early arrangements just after partition but I know that in the 1950s, yes, there was a customs post but rarely was anyone stopped, and especially not the locals who were all well known to the customs men, men who lived amongst them and shopped and drank locally.  So, your folks would have had no trouble crossing for church or to meet family, or anything else, whether it was by car or horse and cart or whatever.One final thought.  There is a comedian here in Ireland called Seamus O'Rourke, who has pointed out the value of customs, saying how would we do without them, sure we wouldn't be able to smuggle goods from one side to the other!https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=314888072462343...or here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93RI7Z3HhZkEmail me if you want pics of anything in the area?Regards,Boydhttps://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy/http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 at 18:23, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
Marion,I cannot speak for the Clady Bridge crossing but my family lived in Fermanagh and routinely crossed the border into Monaghan and elsewhere all through the 1920s & 1930s and beyond. People went back and forth after 1921, just as they did before. You would have had no difficulty attending church on the other side of the border, and I am not sure there was ever a regular Customs presence on Sundays anyway. There were Customs posts on the major “approved” crossing roads but these were generally only staffed from 8.00am to 6.00pm. There were Customs Officers on both sides of the border, so there was an Irish Customs control as well as a British one. Folk were always a little anxious that they’d have something seized, or would have to pay duty. (During WW2 my mother in law used to smuggle the odd half pound of butter from Monaghan to Fermanagh, usually concealed in her underwear. She would travel by bus and was always anxious about being challenged, but never was). As far as I am aware, provided you used an approved crossing point, there were no restrictions on vehicles or any other form of wheeled transport, unless you were importing a vehicle permanently or were carrying commercial goods.  The usual excise duties would apply then. Passports weren’t required. There was no passport control, only Customs. Most of the time, after 6.00pm there was no-one on the border at all, and I don’t think there was much coverage on Sundays. Plus there were several hundred minor “unapproved” roads. There were no permanent controls on them. They were supposedly only to be used by vehicles requiring local access to land, eg farmers, and by persons on foot. In practice they were fairly widely used to cross the border by car. There were mobile Customs patrols that occasionally checked them but from what I heard they were few and far between. You could theoretically have your car seized if you used an unapproved crossing but you normally got it back if you paid a small penalty. Commercial carriers did pay some duty when bringing goods across the border (and they could often reclaim tax, if exporting) but otherwise there wasn’t really a vigorous control. Most people continued to cross fairly easily as they did before partition. Just you needed to allow a little time in case you were stopped.  My feeling is that a horse drawn carriage in the 1920s would be unlikely to have faced any restrictions in crossing. (I have never heard of any).  As international border crossings go it was always very “light touch.” There were no fences or any other markers along the border, save at the approved crossing points.  The last Customs controls on the border were abolished on 1.1.1993.  Elwyn

                On Tuesday, 28 June 2022, 17:33:09 BST, marionshephard via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
            
            
            
            Hello allI am wondering if there is anyone who has some local knowledge about the border between Tyrone and Donegal at Clady. My family were split in two by the border in 1921, although the Donegal members seemed to have managed to continue attending their church in Tyrone ( Urney Presbyterian) and my father born in Tyrone seems to have known his mother's family home in Donegal. Their route across the border was via Clady Bridge over the river Finn. I have been reading about the establishment of customs posts and how it affected people living along the border. Does anyone know if clady Bridge was an approved crossing or not, and how easy was it to move between the two counties there? I know movement on foot was allowed and restrictions were introduced on motor vehicles but what about horse drawn carriages?I would be grateful for any information or thoughts that anyone has.Regards Marion Shephard Sent from my Galaxy

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Hi Boyd
Thanks so much for the local facts about Clady. I know from the past that I can rely on your mine of information. I have driven over the bridge many times when visiting family but never stopped to look at it. In the early days after partition the family obviously went back and forth quite easily although in later years they seem to have settled on one side or the other without much contact. This would probably have happened anyway as families grow apart and its my interest in genealogy that has reminded them of these links.
I will have listen to Seamus O' Rourke and look forward to having a laugh !
Thanks again Marion

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Boyd Gray via CoTyroneList
Sent: 29 June 2022 00:09
To: Elwyn Soutter; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List
Cc: Boyd Gray
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: The border after 1921

Hi Marion,

I live within spitting distance of the bridge at Clady.  It is indeed an approved crossing.

I would not like to be definitive about the early arrangements just after partition but I know that in the 1950s, yes, there was a customs post but rarely was anyone stopped, and especially not the locals who were all well known to the customs men, men who lived amongst them and shopped and drank locally.  So, your folks would have had no trouble crossing for church or to meet family, or anything else, whether it was by car or horse and cart or whatever.

One final thought.  There is a comedian here in Ireland called Seamus O'Rourke, who has pointed out the value of customs, saying how would we do without them, sure we wouldn't be able to smuggle goods from one side to the other!
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=314888072462343
...or here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93RI7Z3HhZk

Email me if you want pics of anything in the area?

Regards,

Boyd