NDC: what exactly is "tucking the front end"?
I cannot find a good explanation of the physics/geometry of this phenomenon.
When you are riding on the track, what exactly happens when you are
"tucking the front end" or when you "tuck the front" and crash?
Thanks.
Kevin
It's when centrifugal force overcomes frictional adhesion, the front
tire stops rolling along an arc and begins to slide in a straight line,
and the tire rotates slightly around it's vertical axis until it's
turned perpendicular to the line along which it's now sliding. You can
feel it starting when the bars try to rotate themselves into the turn.
Theoretically, adding throttle reduces the load on the tire allowing it
to regain traction, but I always just crashed.
On 6/18/2019 9:17 AM, Kevin Kachadourian wrote:
I cannot find a good explanation of the physics/geometry of this phenomenon.
When you are riding on the track, what exactly happens when you are
"tucking the front end" or when you "tuck the front" and crash?
Thanks.
Kevin
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There is also the chance to push the bike back up on its wheels with your
knee. I am one for two with that one.
Jim
Jim Calandro
il Capo
US DESMO
www.usdesmo.com
704-843-0429
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:31 AM Tim Simpson twsds@farmerstel.com wrote:
It's when centrifugal force overcomes frictional adhesion, the front
tire stops rolling along an arc and begins to slide in a straight line,
and the tire rotates slightly around it's vertical axis until it's
turned perpendicular to the line along which it's now sliding. You can
feel it starting when the bars try to rotate themselves into the turn.
Theoretically, adding throttle reduces the load on the tire allowing it
to regain traction, but I always just crashed.
On 6/18/2019 9:17 AM, Kevin Kachadourian wrote:
I cannot find a good explanation of the physics/geometry of this
phenomenon.
When you are riding on the track, what exactly happens when you are
"tucking the front end" or when you "tuck the front" and crash?
Thanks.
Kevin
This is a great explanation, if a bit more technical than most people can
consume I gather. You've described a classic front end slide leading to a
tuck. The tuck part is when the front just folds as you mentioned ("you
can feel it starting when the bars try to rotate themselves into the turn).
Nice work there Tim!
Some folks just flat out refuse to let the front tuck like my good friend
Tyler Scott in this video: https://www.instagram.com/p/BywK3rnHrUx/
Obviously slow speed, intentional circle drill, etc. But at the very
beginning of the chatter, you can see where the front starts to tuck and
Tyler applies throttle and keeps it chattering.
Pags
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:31 AM Tim Simpson twsds@farmerstel.com wrote:
It's when centrifugal force overcomes frictional adhesion, the front
tire stops rolling along an arc and begins to slide in a straight line,
and the tire rotates slightly around it's vertical axis until it's
turned perpendicular to the line along which it's now sliding. You can
feel it starting when the bars try to rotate themselves into the turn.
Theoretically, adding throttle reduces the load on the tire allowing it
to regain traction, but I always just crashed.
Thank you. After reading Tim's explanation, then visualizing it, I can
understand it.
The reason I asked is because, according to my track coach, I nearly tucked
the front end of the BMW s1000rr I was riding at Thunderhill West Sunday. I
had just worked out Turn 3 and so was carrying more speed than usual into
4. I thought the rear had slid a bit, but my coach was behind me and said
it was the front tucking; so he was getting ready to put his hand up for a
rider down. Somehow, it recovered, and I decided to back off just a tad,
giving my nerves a few moments to settle back down.
Kevin
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 07:44, Tony Pags ajpags@gmail.com wrote:
This is a great explanation, if a bit more technical than most people can
consume I gather. You've described a classic front end slide leading to a
tuck. The tuck part is when the front just folds as you mentioned ("you
can feel it starting when the bars try to rotate themselves into the turn).
Nice work there Tim!
Some folks just flat out refuse to let the front tuck like my good friend
Tyler Scott in this video: https://www.instagram.com/p/BywK3rnHrUx/
Obviously slow speed, intentional circle drill, etc. But at the very
beginning of the chatter, you can see where the front starts to tuck and
Tyler applies throttle and keeps it chattering.
Pags
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:31 AM Tim Simpson twsds@farmerstel.com
wrote:
It's when centrifugal force overcomes frictional adhesion, the front
tire stops rolling along an arc and begins to slide in a straight line,
and the tire rotates slightly around it's vertical axis until it's
turned perpendicular to the line along which it's now sliding. You can
feel it starting when the bars try to rotate themselves into the turn.
Theoretically, adding throttle reduces the load on the tire allowing it
to regain traction, but I always just crashed.
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Mailto: kkachadourian@gmail.com
I saved my front once from a slide on the track.
I prefer not to repeat that experience,
Then again ... I’m old and slow!!
Brian
From: Ducati ducati-bounces@list.ducati.net on behalf of Tim Simpson twsds@farmerstel.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 10:31:01 AM
To: ducati@list.ducati.net
Subject: Re: [Ducati] NDC: what exactly is "tucking the front end"?
It's when centrifugal force overcomes frictional adhesion, the front
tire stops rolling along an arc and begins to slide in a straight line,
and the tire rotates slightly around it's vertical axis until it's
turned perpendicular to the line along which it's now sliding. You can
feel it starting when the bars try to rotate themselves into the turn.
Theoretically, adding throttle reduces the load on the tire allowing it
to regain traction, but I always just crashed.
On 6/18/2019 9:17 AM, Kevin Kachadourian wrote:
I cannot find a good explanation of the physics/geometry of this phenomenon.
When you are riding on the track, what exactly happens when you are
"tucking the front end" or when you "tuck the front" and crash?
Thanks.
Kevin
To get the links and updates on all today's Ducati news:
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and
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Ducati mailing list
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Mailto: twsds@farmerstel.com
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and
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Mailto: bscco@hotmail.com
It is funny that it is called tucking, not actually tucking? I guess tucking cause wheel does try to slightly rotate into the turn. But it is also sliding out a bit right? R
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Brian Conner
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 5:23 PM
To: Ducati Owners Group
Subject: Re: [Ducati] NDC: what exactly is "tucking the front end"?
I saved my front once from a slide on the track.
I prefer not to repeat that experience,
Then again ... I’m old and slow!!
Brian
From: Ducati ducati-bounces@list.ducati.net on behalf of Tim Simpson twsds@farmerstel.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 10:31:01 AM
To: ducati@list.ducati.net
Subject: Re: [Ducati] NDC: what exactly is "tucking the front end"?
It's when centrifugal force overcomes frictional adhesion, the front
tire stops rolling along an arc and begins to slide in a straight line,
and the tire rotates slightly around it's vertical axis until it's
turned perpendicular to the line along which it's now sliding. You can
feel it starting when the bars try to rotate themselves into the turn.
Theoretically, adding throttle reduces the load on the tire allowing it
to regain traction, but I always just crashed.
On 6/18/2019 9:17 AM, Kevin Kachadourian wrote:
I cannot find a good explanation of the physics/geometry of this phenomenon.
When you are riding on the track, what exactly happens when you are
"tucking the front end" or when you "tuck the front" and crash?
Thanks.
Kevin
To get the links and updates on all today's Ducati news:
http://www.ductalk.com/
and
https://www.facebook.com/ducnet
Ducati mailing list
Ducati@list.ducati.net
http://list.ducati.net/mailman/listinfo/ducati_list.ducati.net
Mailto: twsds@farmerstel.com
To get the links and updates on all today's Ducati news:
http://www.ductalk.com/
and
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Ducati mailing list
Ducati@list.ducati.net
http://list.ducati.net/mailman/listinfo/ducati_list.ducati.net
Mailto: bscco@hotmail.com
To get the links and updates on all today's Ducati news:
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Mailto: rossaduc@gmail.com
I hear ya, but it definitely tucks. You can tuck after a front end slide,
you can tuck after some chatter, or it can just tuck without much warning.
I've experienced all 3 of those. Hell, on my mini this past week, I induced
the first one trying to crash while doing a circle drill. And yes I was
successful in inducing the crash too!
Tucking is really a great expression for it.
Pags
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 5:34 PM Rich Roberts rossaduc@gmail.com wrote:
It is funny that it is called tucking, not actually tucking? I guess
tucking cause wheel does try to slightly rotate into the turn. But it is
also sliding out a bit right? R
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
I would expect traction control to help out here but not sure how well it
works for front wheel slides. it seems to be looking at the rear wheel data.
Paul
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 8:58 PM Tony Pags ajpags@gmail.com wrote:
I hear ya, but it definitely tucks. You can tuck after a front end slide,
you can tuck after some chatter, or it can just tuck without much warning.
I've experienced all 3 of those. Hell, on my mini this past week, I induced
the first one trying to crash while doing a circle drill. And yes I was
successful in inducing the crash too!
Tucking is really a great expression for it.
Pags
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 5:34 PM Rich Roberts rossaduc@gmail.com wrote:
It is funny that it is called tucking, not actually tucking? I guess
tucking cause wheel does try to slightly rotate into the turn. But it is
also sliding out a bit right? R
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
To get the links and updates on all today's Ducati news:
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Mailto: pjm911@gmail.com
Paul
Traction control works with the motor to deliver power at the rear wheel to
the ground in a manner that gives the most traction available. The front
wheel only benefits from this in the form of ABS maximizing the traction
for braking and turning. If there is not enough traction available for the
speed with which the bike has entered the turn traction control does not
repeal the laws of physics. You will go down. The only thing traction
control might do for the front wheel is if it detects a slide and reduces
the power to the rear wheel and thus the speed which might get you slow
enough that the available traction might save you. Not sure that would
help because often chopping the throttle when entering a turn will suddenly
add weight to the front which will then make it tuck.
My thoughts anyone else understand this better than I do feel free to jump
in.
Jim
Jim Calandro
il Capo
US DESMO
www.usdesmo.com
704-843-0429
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:51 AM Paul March pjm911@gmail.com wrote:
I would expect traction control to help out here but not sure how well it
works for front wheel slides. it seems to be looking at the rear wheel
data.
Paul
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