Re: New Content - Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34
Interesting mention by Dave as our Boak line included Presby. Covenanters with one of their sons named Orange Boak (1867-1947). Likewise his cousin by marriage also had the given name Orange (Orange Emery (1866-1945)). Their families were settlers in western PA and attended a Covenanter church. Always thought it unusual to be so up-front with their politics by naming their children this way. Or might there be another reason for naming one's son 'Orange'?
-Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From: "dm60--- via CoTyroneList" [cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com]
Date: 04/01/2024 08:52 AM
To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
CC: "Chris Owen" pinkapp@gmail.com, "dm60@mweb.co.za" dm60@mweb.co.za
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: New Content - Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34
Hi Chris
I don't know enough to answer this question, so look forward to hearing from others.
But I'm thinking of one kinsman ca. 1800 - 1830, definitely Presbyterian, maybe even Covenanter. He was not a land owner, at best a lessee (found a lease to his son at PRONI). He was a lodgemaster for the Masons, also for an Orange lodge -- yet "despite all this", got himself severely and publicly whipped for being a "United Irishman" ca. 1798 and not kowtowing to the authorities of the day!
And this family branch includes RC today .... lovely folks.
We really have intertwined roots. Or as the Scots might say, "we're all Jock Tamson's bairns"!
Warm regards
Dave
From: "Chris Owen via CoTyroneList" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: "Chris Owen" pinkapp@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, 1 April, 2024 14:22:08
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: New Content - Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34
This might sound a little odd but I have a question.
Having grown up in an RC household I thought the Masons were not part of the RC culture.
Is that the case in 19C Ireland as well? Were Masons the landholders as opposed to the lease holders or Bog Irish as my family were known to describe ourselves?
With thanks
Chris Owen
On 1 Apr 2024, at 20:01, James McKane via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
?Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34
Thanks again to Len Swindley for another great addition to CTI!
Jim McKane
Kitchener, Ontario
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Chris,
As I understand it, the Catholic Church has always disapproved of freemasonry (and still does) but there were certainly plenty of Catholics in the Masons in Ireland in the 1700s and 1800s. I don’t know what the current position is. See:
http://www.irishmasonichistory.com/laurence-dermott-freemasonry-and-the-macdermotts
Dave,
Leasing land was the norm in Ireland in the 1700s and 1800s. Very few folk owned their freehold. Landowners reluctance to sell was one of the many grievances that encouraged some farmers to emigrate. The landowners mostly wanted rental income rather than cash from the sale of their land. A series of land laws were introduced throughout the 1800s which gradually made it easier to renew a lease, almost automatically, (provided you had paid your rent and otherwise complied with the terms) but that still didn’t offer outright ownership or complete security of tenure. It was Wyndham’s Land Act in 1903 that finally forced the sale of most agricultural land to those tenants who wanted to buy.
Regarding your Presbyterian & Masonic ancestor being an Orangeman but not “kowtowing to the authorities” and consequently getting into some trouble, it’s probably worth pointing out that the United Irishmen’s aims were to overthrow the state. In most countries that’s usually seen as treason and so it’s not too surprising the authorities decided to deal with them fairly ruthlessly. It reminds me slightly of the civil disorder on Capitol Hill in Washington following President Trump’s failure to be re-elected. The US authorities weren’t all that keen on that, as I recall, and have spent a lot of time taking those involved to court, presumably trying to send out a similar sort of message as the British authorities were hoping for in 1798.
There are many reasons why the United Irishmen uprising was unsuccessful. Firstly, the authorities had many informants in the organisation and therefore already knew most of the key plans, another was that the United Irishmen lacked military experience and equipment and so were not a very serious military threat, and thirdly not all the population supported the cause anyway. After their defeat, they disappeared completely, almost overnight. Within a few years the Industrial Revolution started to have an impact in Ulster in particular, and the economy improved. Belfast started to grow dramatically in size with shipbuilding and associated industries plus there were around 50 linen mills providing new jobs with a salary (as opposed to a few pennies a week on the family farm). The average Presbyterian seems to have decided that being loyal to the Crown was in their best economic interests. That largely remains the case today and you won’t find many of them here keen on the idea of a United Ireland.
Sandy,
I looked at the 1901 Irish census for the name “Orange” as a fore or middle name. There was just 1 in the whole country. (A child in Kings County. Church of Ireland family). So putting Orange in your name wasn’t common in Ireland. Not then evidently. However Presbyterians favour using a surname as a middle name. Sometimes the mothers maiden name, but it can often just be someone the family respects eg the local Minister or teacher etc. So Orange as surname could appear as a middle name in a later generation. In the 1901 Irish census there were just 57 people with the surname Orange, a fairly even split between Catholics and Church of Ireland. Not 1 Presbyterian, but if a Presbyterian had married an Orange then, as I say you might find it as a middle name amongst their children.
Elwyn
On Monday, 1 April 2024 at 14:31:44 BST, J/S Grace via CoTyroneList <cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com> wrote:
Interesting mention by Dave as our Boak line included Presby. Covenanters with one of their sons named Orange Boak (1867-1947). Likewise his cousin by marriage also had the given name Orange (Orange Emery (1866-1945)). Their families were settlers in western PA and attended a Covenanter church. Always thought it unusual to be so up-front with their politics by naming their children this way. Or might there be another reason for naming one's son 'Orange'? -Sandy -----Original Message-----
From: "dm60--- via CoTyroneList" [cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com]
Date: 04/01/2024 08:52 AM
To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
CC: "Chris Owen" pinkapp@gmail.com, "dm60@mweb.co.za" dm60@mweb.co.za
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: New Content - Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34
Hi Chris I don't know enough to answer this question, so look forward to hearing from others. But I'm thinking of one kinsman ca. 1800 - 1830, definitely Presbyterian, maybe even Covenanter. He was not a land owner, at best a lessee (found a lease to his son at PRONI). He was a lodgemaster for the Masons, also for an Orange lodge -- yet "despite all this", got himself severely and publicly whipped for being a "United Irishman" ca. 1798 and not kowtowing to the authorities of the day! And this family branch includes RC today .... lovely folks. We really have intertwined roots. Or as the Scots might say, "we're all Jock Tamson's bairns"! Warm regards Dave From: "Chris Owen via CoTyroneList" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: "Chris Owen" pinkapp@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, 1 April, 2024 14:22:08
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: New Content - Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34 This might sound a little odd but I have a question.Having grown up in an RC household I thought the Masons were not part of the RC culture.Is that the case in 19C Ireland as well? Were Masons the landholders as opposed to the lease holders or Bog Irish as my family were known to describe ourselves?With thanks Chris Owen
On 1 Apr 2024, at 20:01, James McKane via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
?Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34
Thanks again to Len Swindley for another great addition to CTI!Jim McKaneKitchener, Ontario
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---
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It’s a complicated relationship between the RC Church and Freemasonry. The church has “banned” Catholics from becoming Freemasons, but the movement is still active in Italy. My Great Grandfather, Vincenzo Latona, who married an Irish girl in Limerick in 1885 before coming out to Australia, was a Freemason here in Sydney. As was his brother who ended up in Scotland after his Barque carrying salt was wrecked off the coast. Their family from Palermo were supporters of Garibaldi, who was also a Freemason and whom many Lodges today around the world are named after. I’m just glad they kept records!
Verity
On 2 Apr 2024, at 8:08 am, Elwyn Soutter via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
Chris,
As I understand it, the Catholic Church has always disapproved of freemasonry (and still does) but there were certainly plenty of Catholics in the Masons in Ireland in the 1700s and 1800s. I don’t know what the current position is. See:
http://www.irishmasonichistory.com/laurence-dermott-freemasonry-and-the-macdermotts
Dave,
Leasing land was the norm in Ireland in the 1700s and 1800s. Very few folk owned their freehold. Landowners reluctance to sell was one of the many grievances that encouraged some farmers to emigrate. The landowners mostly wanted rental income rather than cash from the sale of their land. A series of land laws were introduced throughout the 1800s which gradually made it easier to renew a lease, almost automatically, (provided you had paid your rent and otherwise complied with the terms) but that still didn’t offer outright ownership or complete security of tenure. It was Wyndham’s Land Act in 1903 that finally forced the sale of most agricultural land to those tenants who wanted to buy.
Regarding your Presbyterian & Masonic ancestor being an Orangeman but not “kowtowing to the authorities” and consequently getting into some trouble, it’s probably worth pointing out that the United Irishmen’s aims were to overthrow the state. In most countries that’s usually seen as treason and so it’s not too surprising the authorities decided to deal with them fairly ruthlessly. It reminds me slightly of the civil disorder on Capitol Hill in Washington following President Trump’s failure to be re-elected. The US authorities weren’t all that keen on that, as I recall, and have spent a lot of time taking those involved to court, presumably trying to send out a similar sort of message as the British authorities were hoping for in 1798.
There are many reasons why the United Irishmen uprising was unsuccessful. Firstly, the authorities had many informants in the organisation and therefore already knew most of the key plans, another was that the United Irishmen lacked military experience and equipment and so were not a very serious military threat, and thirdly not all the population supported the cause anyway. After their defeat, they disappeared completely, almost overnight. Within a few years the Industrial Revolution started to have an impact in Ulster in particular, and the economy improved. Belfast started to grow dramatically in size with shipbuilding and associated industries plus there were around 50 linen mills providing new jobs with a salary (as opposed to a few pennies a week on the family farm). The average Presbyterian seems to have decided that being loyal to the Crown was in their best economic interests. That largely remains the case today and you won’t find many of them here keen on the idea of a United Ireland.
Sandy,
I looked at the 1901 Irish census for the name “Orange” as a fore or middle name. There was just 1 in the whole country. (A child in Kings County. Church of Ireland family). So putting Orange in your name wasn’t common in Ireland. Not then evidently. However Presbyterians favour using a surname as a middle name. Sometimes the mothers maiden name, but it can often just be someone the family respects eg the local Minister or teacher etc. So Orange as surname could appear as a middle name in a later generation. In the 1901 Irish census there were just 57 people with the surname Orange, a fairly even split between Catholics and Church of Ireland. Not 1 Presbyterian, but if a Presbyterian had married an Orange then, as I say you might find it as a middle name amongst their children.
Elwyn
On Monday, 1 April 2024 at 14:31:44 BST, J/S Grace via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
Interesting mention by Dave as our Boak line included Presby. Covenanters with one of their sons named Orange Boak (1867-1947). Likewise his cousin by marriage also had the given name Orange (Orange Emery (1866-1945)). Their families were settlers in western PA and attended a Covenanter church. Always thought it unusual to be so up-front with their politics by naming their children this way. Or might there be another reason for naming one's son 'Orange'?
-Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From: "dm60--- via CoTyroneList" [cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com]
Date: 04/01/2024 08:52 AM
To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
CC: "Chris Owen" pinkapp@gmail.com, "dm60@mweb.co.za" dm60@mweb.co.za
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: New Content - Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34
Hi Chris
I don't know enough to answer this question, so look forward to hearing from others.
But I'm thinking of one kinsman ca. 1800 - 1830, definitely Presbyterian, maybe even Covenanter. He was not a land owner, at best a lessee (found a lease to his son at PRONI). He was a lodgemaster for the Masons, also for an Orange lodge -- yet "despite all this", got himself severely and publicly whipped for being a "United Irishman" ca. 1798 and not kowtowing to the authorities of the day!
And this family branch includes RC today .... lovely folks.
We really have intertwined roots. Or as the Scots might say, "we're all Jock Tamson's bairns"!
Warm regards
Dave
From: "Chris Owen via CoTyroneList" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com
Cc: "Chris Owen" pinkapp@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, 1 April, 2024 14:22:08
Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Re: New Content - Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34
This might sound a little odd but I have a question.
Having grown up in an RC household I thought the Masons were not part of the RC culture.
Is that the case in 19C Ireland as well? Were Masons the landholders as opposed to the lease holders or Bog Irish as my family were known to describe ourselves?
With thanks
Chris Owen
On 1 Apr 2024, at 20:01, James McKane via CoTyroneList cotyronelist@list.cotyroneireland.com wrote:
?
Masonic Lodge No. 994, Gortin, Bodoney Lower Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland: List of Membership 1809-34https://www.cotyroneireland.com/misc/gortin.html
Thanks again to Len Swindley for another great addition to CTI!
Jim McKane
Kitchener, Ontario
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